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Destiny and Free will

For the purpose of this thread, we are assuming that God gave us the ability to make choices independently of any other universal factors.
You highlighted the wrong part again.

No... you believe there is a sky daddy... and you believe he gave you free will... despite this sky daddy saying the opposite.
I don't believe that this so called "sky daddy" said anything of the sort. Your quote mining proves nothing.

I am humoring you and granting you that he is real for the sake of the argument.
No you are not. You have switched to "there is no god therefore there is no free will". That is a 100% about face.
 
Have you ever tried meditation? I have and you can reach a heightened state of awareness. There is also the matter that I have definitely experienced telepathy. That and the fact that i fought my way off heavy medication in the 1970s by a mind over matter struggle that taught me thought is free and not determined by chemicals. I have discussed these things at length on my thread, and don't wish to attempt to justify my beliefs again on this thread.

Lets just say my experience of consciousness is different from yours.


I'm not sure most of our experiences are that different, but our mental models (narratives, explanations) of what's causing them are different. And that's understandable. For instance my mental model, I agree, cannot account for actual telepathy occurring. (It does offer some possible explanations for the experiencing of telepathy, but because I have no direct access to your experiences I can't tell whether or not any of those explanations would be sufficient for me if I'd had your experiences.)

Thought is not determined by chemicals (that's a kind of a misrepresentation of my cognitive model anyhow, kind of like saying arithmetic is determined by pencils), but it can certainly be influenced by chemicals. Oxygen is a chemical; if you deprive someone of it, they'll stop thinking and experiencing (at least, in any way detectable by others) in rather short order. But that's an extreme example. Consider alcohol instead. For many people, the effects of alcohol clearly include influencing their decision of whether or when to drink more of it. That influence can be overcome by other cognition, such as that taught by 12-step programs, but for many it's far from easy. I have no problem with "mind over matter" (at least, in my view, until it becomes claims of "mind without matter").

As for heightened states of awareness, I don't see how achieving heightened states of awareness challenges a materialist model of cognition, any more than a suitably souped-up tuned-up car achieving a heightened state of acceleration would. Awareness is, after all, what brains evolved to do.

I've practiced discursive meditation, which is almost certainly not the same meditative practice you're talking about. The problem I've had with learning other kinds of meditation is that I find whenever introductory exercises are recommended, "practice this for weeks until you can do it," they're trivially easy. Concentrate only on a moving analog clock for x minutes without looking away or letting my mind wander? Sure, done. Focus until I can perceive the motion of the minute, then the hour, hand? Easy. Not think of an elephant? No problem. This suggests I'm either missing the point so completely that I'm not really doing the exercises at all while thinking I am, or that I don't need those particular practices, so I've turned to other ones instead.
 
WOW... I agree with all the above.... must go have a health checkup now.

Except for the highlighted bit.... which certainly will save me the trip and expense.

Pain is an abnormal state of the brain as result of abnormal body conditions... so the illusion of free will is not at all analogous.

The illusion of free will in the brain is more akin to this visual illusion


In the above image notice the squares A and B....

They are exactly the same color... but try as much as you can you cannot see it.

You can prove it for yourself that they are indeed the same color EXACTLY the same color (RGB = 111,111,111) by loading the image in Paint Shop or similar software and use the color-picker tool and pick the color of the tiles and compare the RGB values... also compare the RGB values of the other tiles....

It is the most amazing illusion ever... in other illusions if you squint or twiddle your head or defocus the eyes or something you might be able to overcome the illusion.... in this one there is no way at all to shirk off the illusion.

The Free will illusion is analogous to this illusion ... not at all to pain.


How can you not have noticed the greater illusion? There are in fact no squares, no cylinder, no shadow. There's just pixels making shapes (none of them actually square or cylindrical) on your screen.

In any case my point wasn't that certain things are illusions, it's that certain things exist only in the narrative experiences constructed by brains. "Illusion" is too loaded a term to be useful for characterizing those things. You seem to be agreeing with me on that. "Making decisions*" and "pain" are among those things. Most people** can't prevent their brains from including either of those things in their experiential narrative, so they're both inescapably real in our experiences, but they have no objective reality.

*We speak metaphorically of inanimate objects making decisions, a tornado that "decides" to "spare" a town or a machine that "decides" to fail at a crucial time. But that's only metaphor; we're not really saying that those things think about alternatives and then choose one based on some preference for certain outcomes.

**Generalized complete absence of pain does exist, as a dangerous medical condition
 
You highlighted the wrong part again.
I don't believe that this so called "sky daddy" said anything of the sort. Your quote mining proves nothing.
No you are not. You have switched to "there is no god therefore there is no free will". That is a 100% about face.


Apologetics should be called the art of strawmanning... not to mention the red herring wafting amongst other fallacies.

 
How can you not have noticed the greater illusion? There are in fact no squares, no cylinder, no shadow. There's just pixels making shapes (none of them actually square or cylindrical) on your screen.

In any case my point wasn't that certain things are illusions, it's that certain things exist only in the narrative experiences constructed by brains. "Illusion" is too loaded a term to be useful for characterizing those things. You seem to be agreeing with me on that. "Making decisions*" and "pain" are among those things. Most people** can't prevent their brains from including either of those things in their experiential narrative, so they're both inescapably real in our experiences, but they have no objective reality.

*We speak metaphorically of inanimate objects making decisions, a tornado that "decides" to "spare" a town or a machine that "decides" to fail at a crucial time. But that's only metaphor; we're not really saying that those things think about alternatives and then choose one based on some preference for certain outcomes.

**Generalized complete absence of pain does exist, as a dangerous medical condition


Wow... I agree again... the exorcism I was given must have worked.
 
I've heard this argument before, and still don't get it. It borders on the mystical.


Yes, it does. It turns out that carefully developing and applying a physicalist model to subjective experience leads to some very similar conclusions to those of many (especially Eastern) mystics. I can't help that. I didn't set out with any such objective in mind.

If we say our subjective self and pain and all is an "illusion", we are going full tilt Buddhist. Our sense of self is the only "real" thing we can be aware of. All the consequently illusory sensory inputs of data and evidence would fall under the same illusory umbrella, no?


That's why I brought up the term "illusion" in order to object to it. It means too many entirely different things:

- Something we perceive via our senses about the material world that is not actually true of the material world. "The sun circles the earth." "The magician made the lady disappear."

- Something we conclude at one level of cognitive processing of an abstraction, that's not true at a different (more basic) level of cognitive processing of the abstraction: "Square B is lighter than square A."

(Thanks to leumas for the example. Note that if the picture were an accurate photograph of a real collection of objects colored and arranged in a straightforward way, square B would have been colored a lighter shade than square A in those real objects. Our perception would be giving us correct information about the real world, while being inaccurate in its interpretation of the characteristics of the pixels of the photograph. Since the picture is not actually a photograph, it becomes a discrepancy between different levels of interpretation of abstractions instead.)

- Conflating or contrasting our mental categories and other narratives with the physical reality they're modeling. This leads to absurdities if done too little or too much. At one extreme, you get, "you don't really see a tree, you only see your indoctrinated cultural expectations of what a tree is." At the other extreme, you get philosophers arguing for millennia about whether chairs exist or the Ship of Theseus, as if how we describe things is somehow a fundamental intrinsic property of those things. With everyone crying "illusion!" at every step.

Subjective experiences are real. (You're welcome, Descartes.)

The physical world is also real. (Sorry, Descartes.)

But they're real in different ways, subject to different rules.

We can, and should, talk of where subjective experiences more or less accurately correspond to qualities of the physical world, and where they don't. When they don't, we can call it illusion, but there's a big caveat.

If we say "pain is an illusion" we're implying that there's a discrepancy between the subjective experience and the physical world. But if someone experiences pain, what is it that exists in the physical world that's actually not experiencing pain? If there's no such thing, then there's no discrepancy. So there can be convincing near-universal near-unavoidable subjective experiences that don't exist in the physical world, but don't contradict it either. The term "illusion" doesn't apply so well in those cases.

"Free will" is almost but not quite the same. For most of history, if you said free will is an illusion, there's nothing known in the physical world for there to be a discrepancy with. But then the functioning of the brain was discovered, and the question arose whether the brain possesses free will in some physical way (e.g. one of Penrose's theories) or does not, and if it does not, is free will not an illusion? It's an illusion (that is, an erroneous conclusion about the real world) only if we assume that the brain must possess free will in order to have the subjective experience of free will. If instead we accept that free will is a feature of the subjective narrative generated by the brain, then there's nothing else to be the contradicting reality behind the illusion. It only matters whether or not the brain can generate that narrative, not whether or not the brain operates deterministically+possibly randomly when it does so. That's why I think "free will is an illusion" is misleading.
 

Since the beginning, hasn't this world been made corrupt as soon as Adam took a bite of that apple? When that happened, the Bible says there became a separation from God and sin covered the earth. God warned Adam that the wages of sin/disobedience was death. In the Old Testament there was the law of the Ten Commandments God set forth as a moral rule to follow after the fall of man.
The New Testament is God on earth in the flesh as the sacrifice to pay the price of sin. This shedding of blood is atonement for all sins, so therefore Jesus Christ is the only way to reach God the father in heaven...That is his promise and there is no other way.
So one does have a free will to choose; Either believe that Jesus Christ died on the cross for your sins and accept him as Lord and savior in your life or not.
 
Have we managed to get beyond “god knows everything we will do and has given us free will” yet?
 
If one person becomes a Christian, a hundred Christians become Muslims. Even I have helped many Christians to become Muslims.

Look, even your priests are repenting and turning towards the true religion, Islam:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JAqfLbCpqLE

I realize there are Christians who fall away, but his commitment to Jesus Christ correct in the manner of leaning "not into their own understanding" but taking up the cross and do as Jesus asks; Forgive those who hate you and preach his word. I don't believe he was.

This man was once a Muslim;

https://youtu.be/KOtHwNavd38
 
I realize there are Christians who fall away, [/URL]

On the contrary, they (those who convert to Islam) have risen. It is the Christians, especially the pagans who worship the trinity or Jesus, who have fallen.

I can show you hundreds of videos to your one video. Because as I said, if one is becoming a Christian, hundreds are becoming Muslims.

Let me give you a more striking example this time. Again I will give you an example of famous Muslims. His name is Jesus:

Holy Quran 19:30 He(Jesus) said: "I am a servant of God/Allah, He has given me the Book and made me a prophet."

****

Christians worship/believe 3(three) gods.

And In addition , their saints and priests like their Gods.

They share in the judgment of God (In christianity).

9:31 "They took their scholars and priests to be lords besides God, and the Messiah son of Mary, while they were only commanded to serve One god, there is no god but He, be He glorified for what they set up."

The Pagans think they believe in one God, but in reality they have faith in many gods.

Example; Hindus saying "333 in 1" and Christians saying "3 in 1".

****

Quran 21:43 Or do they have gods that will protect them from Us? They cannot help themselves, nor can they be protected from Us.

The verse tells one of the reasons for the to attribute a partner to (God) of the villains; To seek refuge in the imaginary gods to protect themselves from God...

For example, seeing Jesus as a partner in God is a kind of.

Bad people seek refuge in the partners to escape from God.

****

All pagans think they're monotheistic. In fact, they are polytheists, but the devil makes them think they are monotheists in fancy words.The demon's trap is always the same. :

Hindus "333 in 1."

Christians "3 in 1".

Pantheists "everything in 1"

New Agers "we are in 1"

This is paganism.
 
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Although this is likely falling on deaf ears, OP, I was told the Trinity works like this:

The Father is God of man,
The Son is God as man, and
The Spirit is God in man.

Not three gods, just three expressions of Him.
 
A

Not three gods, just three expressions of Him.

I already said that above. All polytheists think they are monotheists with this pantheistic trap.

Hindus, New Age believers and all other pagans are in the same trap. They believe in many Gods as a reflection of the One God, they are in shirk. Just like Christians, they have fallen into the same trap of Satan.

Study all the polytheistic pagan religions around the world. With one or two exception, they all have the same pagan structure within a pantheistic philosophy.

Polytheism, pantheism, holy men, priests, communism, asceticism, poverty, evolution, reincarnation, spirit world, dualism and other same pagan beliefs...

Jesus is in reality an Islamic prophet, a Muslim. Just like all other prophets and messengers. But after he left this world, the Islamic religion he brought was degenerated and immediately blended with pagan elements. It was called Christianity. So Christianity today is a hybrid doctrine, half Islamic and half Spiritist. The belief in the Trinity is completely pagan/polytheistic. Like Hinduism or Spiritualism.

Hindus "333 in 1"

Christians "3 in 1".

Pantheists "everything in 1"

New Agers "we are in 1"

This is paganism.
 
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And as I already said above, I'm sure that was falling on deaf ears.

All pagans are in the same trap. Christians, Hindus and others, all of them worship many gods as a reflection of the one God, but they think they are monotheists. In reality they are polytheists in the mire of polytheism.
 
Although this is likely falling on deaf ears, OP, I was told the Trinity works like this:

The Father is God of man,
The Son is God as man, and
The Spirit is God in man.

Not three gods, just three expressions of Him.

There are 3; Father, Son, & Spirit One in being, three in person.
These three persons are equal because they are all God.
 
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