Destiny and Free will

[Leumas]

I guess it is "Allah" in this thread and yes, he is supposed to have created people.

Allah = YHWH

Did he ask anyone's permission when he gave them any of these tragic diseases...

• Anencephaly
• Craniorachischisis
• Spina bifida
• Interrupted aortic arch
• Trisomy 21 (Down syndrome)
• Cleft palate with cleft lip
• Renal agenesis/hypoplasia
• Rectal atresia/stenosis
• ....

Diseases are not relevant to this thread

So when your deadbeat sky daddy creates a human with delipidating congenital abnormalities... you do not see how that impacts their free will... you cannot even for a second sympathize with a disabled person to see how life is not full of choices that they can choose from???

and I don't know what the Quran has to say about Adam and Eve. (According to Genesis 2, Adam wanted to know about good and evil and now he does).

The Quran copied all its fairy tales from the Talmud and the Torah and Christian claptrap.

Did he give us the free will to not have to eat and excrete?? Did he give us the free will not to be born in a parched famine country or a war zone or to abusive parents or drug addict parents or the result of a rape or or or or or???

Those are not choices you get to make so they have nothing to do with free will.

Exactly... and you cannot even for a second sympathize with those people so as to see how their lives (really short miserable ones) are not exactly full of choices that they can choose from.




.

 

[psionl0]

So when your deadbeat sky daddy creates a human with delipidating congenital abnormalities... you do not see how that impacts their free will...

I don't see how not being able to choose between caviar or lobster for an entree has any impact on free will.

No matter how great or terrible your life is, there are always choices to be made.

 

[Leumas]

Do we really need an ironclad definition of "free will"?

Here is an example...
NSFW - YHWH Free Will

Here are some more...

• Isaiah 14:26-27 ... For YHWH of hosts hath purposed, and who shall thwart it? and his hand is stretched out, and who shall turn it back?
• Psalm 139:13-16 ... all the days ordained for me were written in your book before one of them came to be.
• Proverbs 16:4 YHWH has made everything for its purpose, even the wicked for the day of trouble.
• Isaiah 45:7 I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I YHWH do all these things.
• Amos 3:6 Shall a trumpet be blown in the city, and the people not be afraid? shall there be evil in a city, and YHWH hath not done it?
• Ezekiel 14:9 And if the prophet be deceived when he hath spoken a thing, I YHWH have deceived that prophet...
• Exodus 7:3-5 And I will harden Pharaoh's heart, and multiply my signs and my wonders in the land of Egypt... that I may lay my hand upon Egypt... and the Egyptians shall know that I am YHWH
• Romans 8:30 Moreover whom he did predestinate , them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.
• Ephesians 1:4-5 ... In love he predestined us for adoption as sons through Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of his will,
• Ephesians 1:11 In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will
• Romans 9:11-13 (For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth...
• Romans 9:15-16 ... So then it is not of him that willeth , nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.
• Romans 9:21-23 Hath not the potter power over the clay , of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour ? What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction: And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory ...

 

[Leumas]

I don't see how not being able to choose between caviar or lobster for an entree has any impact on free will.

No matter how great or terrible your life is, there are always choices to be made.

Ask these people...
NSFW - YHWH Free Will

 

[MRC_Hans]

Yes. I have long wondered about people who believe on an omnipotent god: To explain the motives of such a god is far more complex (=impossible) than simply realizing that life is mainly random and at best you have some level of free will to slightly influence your fate.

Hans

 

[Leumas]

Yes. I have long wondered about people who believe on an omnipotent god: To explain the motives of such a god is far more complex (=impossible) than simply realizing that life is mainly random and at best you have some level of free will to slightly influence your fate.

Much like in this wise tale

 

[psionl0]

Do we really need an ironclad definition of "free will"?

Here is an example...

Here are some more...

Do you always quote random words before you make an unrelated point of your own?

Or is it the case that like Emre_1974tr, you haven't got the foggiest what free will means?

 

[Leumas]

Do you always quote random words before you make an unrelated point of your own?

Or is it the case that like Emre_1974tr, you haven't got the foggiest what free will means?

It is amply evident and clear that you are the one who has nary an iota of an inkling of what free will means.

I defy you to define your understanding of it ... and then explain how exactly your deadbeat sky daddy creating people with delipidating disabling agonizing congenital diseases fits into that definition if you ever can manage to do so.

 

[psionl0]

I defy you to define your understanding of it ...

I already have. Now it is time for you to give us the "true" meaning of free will.

 

[Leumas]

I already have. Now it is time for you to give us the "true" meaning of free will.

Where... citation please!

And have you done this

and then explain how exactly your deadbeat sky daddy creating people with delipidating disabling agonizing congenital diseases fits into that definition if you ever can manage to do so.

 

[psionl0]

Where... citation please!

Why would I repeat those posts again? You never read them - not even when you are quoting them.

And have you done this

Yes, but you didn't understand one iota of it. You seem to think that "free will" means unlimited choices and total freedom from suffering.

When you learn the proper definition of free will you might be able to ask more sensible questions.

 

[Leumas]

Why would I repeat those posts again? You never read them - not even when you are quoting them.

I am asking you for a link... not to repeat them...

Yes, but you didn't understand one iota of it. You seem to think that "free will" means unlimited choices and total freedom from suffering.

No I do not... but but I do think that you have no idea what free will is because you think that being disabled with a debilitating congenital disease is as inconsequential to one's freedom to will as not being able to eat lobster.

When you learn the proper definition of free will you might be able to ask more sensible questions.

yup... that is what you ought to be telling yourself.

I will bet anything that your definition of free will is whatever apologetics you can wiggle so as to justify your deadbeat sky daddy creating people who cannot even will let alone freely.

 

[psionl0]

No I do not... but but I do think that you have no idea what free will is because you think that being disabled with a debilitating congenital disease is as inconsequential to one's freedom to will as not being able to eat lobster.

This is what I am talking about. You think a congenital disease has something to do with free will. It is a completely different thing.

 

[Leumas]

This is what I am talking about. You think a congenital disease has something to do with free will. It is a completely different thing.

No it is not... and if you had even the slightest understanding of what a Congenital Disease is... and what Free Will is... and even the smallest modicum of empathy and sympathy for how a disabled person's choices and opportunities and abilities are stymied and debilitated and hindered and obstructed and limited and exasperated and curtailed... you will see that it has everything to do with free will.

Do you think a kid who had the misfortune of being created by your deadbeat sky daddy to be born in war torn Somalia has the same ability to exercise free will to eat well and drink clean water IN AFRICA as Donald Trump Jr. does IN AFRICA while he is there blasting to death endangered species. Let alone eating Lobster....

 

[psionl0]

No it is not... and if you had even the slightest understanding of what a Congenital Disease is... and what Free Will is...

This proves that you don't have the slightest understanding of the concept of free will. It has nothing to do with opportunities nor hardships.

One person gets to choose between A and B while another person has to choose between C and D. Although their alternatives are different, they still make the final choice between the alternatives that they have been given.

 

[wollery]

Leumas, your argument could just as easily include, "I wasn't born with eagle wings, which means I can't exercise my will to freely soar above the mountains and plains, hunting for rabbits."

Free will is the ability to choose between the options which are in front of you, not options which may or may not exist in your imagination, or even the options available to other people in other times and places.

Yours is a ridiculous definition, and basically means that it is impossible for anyone to actually have free will, unless you subscribe to an idealistic solipsistic philosophy.

 

[MRC_Hans]

This proves that you don't have the slightest understanding of the concept of free will. It has nothing to do with opportunities nor hardships.

One person gets to choose between A and B while another person has to choose between C and D. Although their alternatives are different, they still make the final choice between the alternatives that they have been given.

This.

Free will, and there are different definitions, but none of them imply that you can choose whatever you will. Such privilege is that of gods.

What you can do is, when you come to a crossroads, decide which way you will proceed.

Hans

 

[Leumas]

Leumas, your argument could just as easily include, "I wasn't born with eagle wings, which means I can't exercise my will to freely soar above the mountains and plains, hunting for rabbits.

Asking to be not born with congenital diseases just like all the other humans who were not born with congenital diseases is not asking for wings...

If you cannot see how absurd the above statement is ... it would begoove you one day to go visit a children's hospital.

 

[Leumas]

This.

Free will, and there are different definitions, but none of them imply that you can choose whatever you will. Such privilege is that of gods.

What you can do is, when you come to a crossroads, decide which way you will proceed.

Hans

People who are born with congenital diseases do not have the same luxury of choosing paths that they cannot follow even if they wanted to follow them and the path was right there presented to them....

If a Spina Bifida child wanted to play in the play ground that she can see all the other children playing in right in front of her eyes... cannot do that despite wanting to do that and choosing to do that.

If you cannot appreciate this ... go visit a children's hospital.

 

[Leumas]

This proves that you don't have the slightest understanding of the concept of free will. It has nothing to do with opportunities nor hardships.

One person gets to choose between A and B while another person has to choose between C and D. Although their alternatives are different, they still make the final choice between the alternatives that they have been given.

No this proves that you have no appreciation for what REALITY is like for disabled people.

If a child born with no arms wanted to reach out and grab a toy like he wants to do and the toy is right there and he chooses to grab it... he cannot because he has no arms with which to exercise his free will to choose to grab the toy.

If you cannot appreciate that ... then ah well... I do not know hot to make you understand this.