Destiny and Free will

[Emre_1974tr]

Since the god already knows where we will go, why create us at all?

(This is fun. Too bad Emre will ignore it).

Hans

I explain this in detail in my article;

1- It shows us where we deserve to be. Thus, we have no right to object in the hereafter. Innocence does not need proof, but guilt needs proof. The wicked must be witnesses to their own wickedness.

2- To taste some small punishments and rewards in this world. For example, Pharaoh was a hellish villain, but he had some virtuous qualities and he was rewarded in this world by living in luxury for a while.

3- The aim is to get what we deserve, both in this world and in the Hereafter.

Peace

 

[Emre_1974tr]

So, out of curiosity, are the Sunni or the Shi'ites the right kind of Muslims?

None of them are.

Real Islam is very different from what you know and its only source is the Quran:

http://quranic.org/

For example, the headscarf, stoning, circumcision, communism, the spirit world, black stone are never in the Quran/Islam. But all these things are in the Bible. Today's Christians and Jews live according to the Quran, i.e. as/like Muslims, while today's Muslims live according to the Bible, i.e. as/like Christians.

 

[wollery]

Sounds like a great justification for being thoroughly evil.

I mean, I might as well be as wicked as I can possibly manage, because that's what god created me for, and that's what I was going to do anyway! Why try to be good, if it's just fighting the inevitable?


Except of course that it's entirely nonsensical. God creates us and gives us options, but knows in advance what choices we're going to make? That's not free will.

It's like a magician who offers you a deck of cards and says, "pick a card, any card...", as though we actually have a free choice. We all know that there's no actual free choice in what card we get, that's the whole point of the trick. We don't know what card we're going to get, so we have the illusion of a free choice, but that really is all it is - an illusion

 

[porch]

Free will is an incoherent, unfalsifiable, and useless concept. If anyone thinks they know what they are talking about when they talk about free will, can you provide a sensical definition? Can you come up with a way to distinguish a universe with free will from a universe without one? And can you tell me what you could possibly do with free will that you can't do without it?

Huzzah!

 

[Thermal]

Free will is an incoherent, unfalsifiable, and useless concept. If anyone thinks they know what they are talking about when they talk about free will, can you provide a sensical definition?

Something like your consciousness having agency over your fate?

Eta: do you believe in time or space? Can you provide a "sensible" definition? Presumably "sensible", as you use it, is an objective standard we can all agree on.

Can you come up with a way to distinguish a universe with free will from a universe without one?

Assuming people have the wherewithal to be universe constructors is a bit of a cheesy conundrum, isn't it?

And can you tell me what you could possibly do with free will that you can't do without it?

Have a greater understanding of the workings of the mind, for a start. You seem to think learning is bad, or useless? Hm.

Huzzah!

Huzzah, to wit: you seem more confident in your conclusion than ...um...the rest of the world and scientific communities. Care to show your work? Must be unimpugnable, yes?

 

[Thor 2]

Allah creates human beings in the most beautiful way. He gives them free will equal to evil and good. But that person chooses evil of his own free will. God knows even before He creates him that he will choose evil and He creates him to get what he deserves.

So God creates the evil ones with the pre knowledge that they will turn out evil, because of their defective judgment - choosing evil instead of good.

Why not skip making the evil ones at all?

Oh, hang on..... here it is:

Just as it is beautiful to create the good for heaven, it is equally beautiful to give the bad what they deserve.

We have the beauty of seeing the bad ones suffer. Sick, sick, sick.

And like Scorpion says:

If a persons fate is decided even before he is created then they never had free will.

 

[IanS]

And by the way, to say something that is rather obvious - these posts from Emre 1974tr sound very much like the current long running thread with Heydarian, who has also been making all sorts of claims about how wonderful and true the Quran is ... you could almost begin to think they are the same person ... except that Heydarian has only been preaching here for a year now, whereas Emre has apparently been at it for over 4 years! ... or maybe even the full 15 years

 

[porch]

Something like your consciousness having agency over your fate?

This is a good start. As we continue, though, I think we are going to need to do a lot of unpacking of "consciousness" and "agency".

Eta: do you believe in time or space? Can you provide a "sensible" definition? Presumably "sensible", as you use it, is an objective standard we can all agree on.

As far as time and space are concerned, I'm not much of a numbers guy, so I will go with the physicists. What scientific communities are your go-to for free will?

Not sure why "sensible" is in quotes, because I say sensical, as in having an internal logic and consistency.

Assuming people have the wherewithal to be universe constructors is a bit of a cheesy conundrum, isn't it?

That's pretty far away from the point I am trying to raise. Forget about universes. Falsifiability as it pertains to free will: How would you test to see if it is real or not?

Have a greater understanding of the workings of the mind, for a start. You seem to think learning is bad, or useless? Hm.

I am a human, a deterministic (plus a little randomized, maybe?) system with slightly vague barriers, that acts within a greater deterministic system. I enjoy learning, and I enjoy learning about the working of the mind. Sea slugs and software also learn. What does any of it have to do with free will? How might I (or the sea slugs) have chosen differently?

Huzzah, to wit: you seem more confident in your conclusion than ...um...the rest of the world and scientific communities. Care to show your work? Must be unimpugnable, yes?

My work? I am but a lowly skeptic taking the null position. I don't believe in ghosts. Can anyone show me? I don't believe in free will. Can anyone show me?

I chose Huzzah because I realized I was making a bold challenge to the entire ISF. I considered En garde! and FIGHT ME, but I thought Huzzah sounded a bit friendlier. Is it on or what?

 

[Thermal]

This is a good start. As we continue, though, I think we are going to need to do a lot of unpacking of "consciousness" and "agency".

Agreed. The language is notoriously imprecise for clinically defining the intangible.

As far as time and space are concerned, I'm not much of a numbers guy, so I will go with the physicists. What scientific communities are your go-to for free will?

Neurologists, psychologists, even philosophers and theologians. Neurologists on the most rank, though.

Not sure why "sensible" is in quotes, because I say sensical, as in having an internal logic and consistency.

Thanks for clarifying. "Sensible" can be a slippery one, sometimes, and I've been bit before.

That's pretty far away from the point I am trying to raise. Forget about universes. Falsifiability as it pertains to free will: How would you test to see if it is real or not?

Tough one. Libset (sp?) ran a famous experiment, though widely discredited. Our current state of knowledge is likely insufficient to falsify or prove. Conceivably, we could trace down the neural billiard balls determining immediate thought processes, but back at the zygote stage, we'd be looking at the Butterfly effect writ large. But does being unable to mechanically test, given our current limitations, render the premise unfalsifyable? I think exceptions can be made when poking around frontiers blind. As in, we don't even know enough yet to know If the premise is falsifiable, so the null may be suspended while we explore?

I am a human, a deterministic (plus a little randomized, maybe?) system with slightly vague barriers, that acts within a greater deterministic system. I enjoy learning, and I enjoy learning about the working of the mind. Sea slugs and software also learn. What does any of it have to do with free will? How might I (or the sea slugs) have chosen differently?

Not following you. Learning enough to determine whether or not we have free will is central to understanding ourselves, and other frontiers such as AI

My work? I am but a lowly skeptic taking the null position. I don't believe in ghosts. Can anyone show me? I don't believe in free will. Can anyone show me?

Flipping it: people generally think they make choices. They think about them. This is a subtle acknowledgement that the null is in fact free will existing, rather than something that needs demonstrating. We wouldn't have words like "choice" or "responsibility" without the implicit assumption of free will.

I chose Huzzah, because I realized I was making a bold challenge to the entire ISF. I considered En garde! and FIGHT ME, but I thought Huzzah sounded a bit friendlier. Is it on or what?

I'm game, but have limited unintoxicated time left. Hopefully a more lucid poster will saunter in.

 

[porch]

I'm game, but have limited unintoxicated time left. Hopefully a more lucid poster will saunter in.

For now, I'm just going to address this, because, yeah, I'm gonna crash. I hope to reply further over the next couple days.

 

[acbytesla]

None of them are.

Real Islam is very different from what you know and its only source is the Quran:

http://quranic.org/

For example, the headscarf, stoning, circumcision, communism, the spirit world, black stone are never in the Quran/Islam. But all these things are in the Bible. Today's Christians and Jews live according to the Quran, i.e. as/like Muslims, while today's Muslims live according to the Bible, i.e. as/like Christians.

Real Islam is an oxymoron. The terms are mutually exclusive.

 

[psionl0]

No, on the contrary. Here it is known what you will choose with your free will and I have explained it.

You haven't explained anything. You are just having an each way bet.

The only way that God could know what choices you will make is if he pre-programmed you to make those choices. If you are not free to make different choices then you don't have free will.

 

[psionl0]

Free will is an incoherent, unfalsifiable, and useless concept. If anyone thinks they know what they are talking about when they talk about free will, can you provide a sensical definition? Can you come up with a way to distinguish a universe with free will from a universe without one? And can you tell me what you could possibly do with free will that you can't do without it?

Do we really need an ironclad definition of "free will"?

This is not a thread about determinism or probabilism. For the purpose of this thread, we are assuming that God gave us the ability to make choices independently of any other universal factors.

 

[Leumas]

Do we really need an ironclad definition of "free will"?

This is not a thread about determinism or probabilism. For the purpose of this thread, we are assuming that God gave us the ability to make choices independently of any other universal factors.

Which god is that?? I am going to assume that you mean a thing that CREATED people... correct me if I am wrong.

Did he ask anyone's permission when he gave them any of these tragic diseases...

• Anencephaly
• Craniorachischisis
• Iniencephaly
• Encephalocele
• Spina bifida
• Microcephaly
• Microtia/Anotia
• Hypospadias
• Common truncus (truncus arteriosus)
• Hypoplastic left heart syndrome
• Interrupted aortic arch
• Pulmonary valve atresia
• Tetralogy of Fallot
• Transposition of the great arteries
• Tricuspid valve atresia and stenosis
• Trisomy 21 (Down syndrome)
• Cleft palate alone
• Cleft lip alone
• Cleft palate with cleft lip
• Talipes equinovarus
• Reduction defects of upper and lower limbs (longitudinal, transverse, and intercalary)
• Exomphalos (omphalocele)
• Gastroschisis
• Renal agenesis/hypoplasia
• Esophageal agenesis/hypoplasia
• Large intestinal atresia/stenosis
• Rectal atresia/stenosis

 

[Leumas]

The only way that God could know what choices you will make is if he pre-programmed you to make those choices. If you are not free to make different choices then you don't have free will.

Did he give us the free will to not have to eat and excrete??

Did he give us the free will not to be born in a parched famine country or a war zone or to abusive parents or drug addict parents or the result of a rape or or or or or???

 

[Leumas]

Real Islam is an oxymoron. The terms are mutually exclusive.

Your statement is incorrect ... Islam is real ... it is a load of claptrap... but it is real... we have it and people follow it and it has caused all too real mayhem.

So your statement is belied by the reality we live in...

 

[psionl0]

Which god is that?? I am going to assume that you mean a thing that CREATED people... correct me if I am wrong.

I guess it is "Allah" in this thread and yes, he is supposed to have created people.

Did he ask anyone's permission when he gave them any of these tragic diseases...

Diseases are not relevant to this thread and I don't know what the Quran has to say about Adam and Eve. (According to Genesis 2, Adam wanted to know about good and evil and now he does).

Did he give us the free will to not have to eat and excrete??

Did he give us the free will not to be born in a parched famine country or a war zone or to abusive parents or drug addict parents or the result of a rape or or or or or???

Those are not choices you get to make so they have nothing to do with free will.

 

[Crossbow]

None of them are.

Real Islam is very different from what you know and its only source is the Quran:

http://quranic.org/

For example, the headscarf, stoning, circumcision, communism, the spirit world, black stone are never in the Quran/Islam. But all these things are in the Bible. Today's Christians and Jews live according to the Quran, i.e. as/like Muslims, while today's Muslims live according to the Bible, i.e. as/like Christians.

Well then, ...

If this is actually the case, then it sure is nice to know that there are some 'Real Muslims' at hand who practice "Real Islam" that can show the rest of us normal people how terribly wrong we are.

 

[Scorpion]

None of them are.

Real Islam is very different from what you know and its only source is the Quran:

Like I said, the only source of your beliefs is the stinky old Quran; A book of evil lies from a false prophet.

When you talk about the hereafter, I take it you are talking about being resurrected on earth on the day of judgement, not living in the spirit world.

 

[Leumas]

Like I said, the only source of your beliefs is the stinky old Quran; A book of evil lies from a false prophet.

When you talk about the hereafter, I take it you are talking about being resurrected on earth on the day of judgement, not living in the spirit world.

There is no such thing as a true prophet... all prophets are charlatans and flimflammers.

When you talk about the hereafter, I take it you are talking about being resurrected on earth on the day of judgement, not living in the spirit world.

That is what Christianity also thinks... have you read revelation... if not I suggest you read it ... and/or also read this article.