Ed Christianity Foments Villainy

[HansMustermann]

Well ... the ones in the NT are apostles and disciples... not prophets per se... in any case technically Jesus is not a prophet either... no??

Not everything written by the disciples is a prophecy, but Revelation IS qualifying as such.

 

[HansMustermann]

The humorous part is spending pages on this...only to have God smite you in the end, at best. I am curious as to why you devote such time to this...in either way, it is just folly.

Well, kinda the point is that some of us don't believe there is a God to do that smiting in the first place.

 

[Leumas]

The humorous part is spending pages on this...only to have God smite you in the end, at best. I am curious as to why you devote such time to this...in either way, it is just folly.

So as to expose the TURPITUDE that is called christianity that foments and ratifies and enables people to do and say stuff like this...

The humorous part is spending pages on this...only to have God smite you in the end, at best. I am curious as to why you devote such time to this...in either way, it is just folly.

Aha... so you have given up on pretending that you do not believe in it???

The humorous part is spending pages on this...only to have God smite you in the end, at best. I am curious as to why you devote such time to this...in either way, it is just folly.

Your CONCERN is fully appreciated... but I am afraid will not be given a second's consideration.

 

[HansMustermann]

Yes... but... christianity is supposed to be a DIVINE revelation by the creator of the universe the one and only omnipotent omniscient omnibenevolent omnipresent GOD... and the road to eternal salvation or eternal torment.... so it is not quite the same as "anything" of human endeavors or even other gods.... couldn't this supreme God have gotten it right so as to not leave ESCAPE CLAUSES for villains to self-ratify their misdeeds like in other not so divine affairs?

I'm not sure it's a case of "getting it wrong," though.

I mean, read Paul. (E.g., Romans 6 and 7.) For him all the other rules from God are just essentially a trap, something nobody can uphold in its entirety, so everyone deserves death. (NB, I don't think Paul has our idea of Hell. For him it's either you earn eternal life, or you're still dead.) The whole point of the Law for him is just to make that clear. Whether you're the most devout Rabbi who's ever lived, or literally Hitler, EVERYONE deserves death in Paul's interpretation.

So, yes, only Jesus can forgive you, because otherwise no matter what you've actually done, you're just as much of a villain as Ted Bundy in the first place. It's not a case of yeah, but now you can go be a villain. It's more like, you ARE a villain in the first place anyway. At worst, you can go on and continue to be one. Or you can ask Jesus for a pardon.

Also, whether Paul himself was a gnostic or not, it does sorta align with the whole gnostic/initiation-cult views. For those you are trapped in this world, and only the secret knowledge can offer a way out. It doesn't matter whether you're a villain or not, it just matters whether you can get out or not.

Hell, for some not only will obeying the rules not save you, but obeying the rules is what is trapping you in this crappy lower universe in the first place. E.g., take the Cainites. These guys literally revered the first murderer. Literally, the biblical guy who invented murder was their hero, not villain. Because again, for them obeying the rules of the lower demiurge who created this world is what traps you here. Actually going out and doing some murder, theft, adultery and a good bit of coveting the neighbour's ass, is how you might save yourself. Though the secret knowledge is still the better bet.


TL;DR: actually it's intentional, rather than "getting it wrong."

 

[Leumas]

Not everything written by the disciples is a prophecy, but Revelation IS qualifying as such.

Well... according to the apologists... apparently... no one can claim any consistent anything about these wriggling slithering writhing religions based upon the worship of the deadbeat sky friend of the peripatetic Sumerian in Canaan who went around lying about his half-sister-wife saying she was his sister and collecting lots of riches from any king in the region who happened to appreciate her "beauty".

Reminds me of the moray eel in this article.

 

[HansMustermann]

That's getting away from what is a prophecy and what isn't. It literally only means you've been given a message by God or a similar supernatural creature. That's all. It's not the same as being a messiah, nor being some great religious authority figure, nor even the message actually being of some great importance, nor anything.

In ancient Israel, we see IIRC in Josephus a prophecy being just that someone will be murdered on the road. Not even a king or governor or anything.

Literally, if I had a 'prophetic' dream that mom will cancel her flight back, and it actually happens, I'm a prophet. The bar is literally that low. (BTW, that actually happened at one point. So I AM the sena... err... a prophet)

 

[Leumas]

I'm not sure it's a case of "getting it wrong," though.

I mean, read Paul. (E.g., Romans 7.) For him all the other rules from God are just essentially a trap, something nobody can uphold in its entirety, so everyone deserves death. (NB, I don't think Paul has our idea of Hell. For him it's either you earn eternal life, or you're still dead.) The whole point of the Law for him is just to make that clear. Whether you're the most devout Rabbi who's ever lived, or literally Hitler, EVERYONE deserves death in Paul's interpretation.

So, yes, only Jesus can forgive you, because otherwise no matter what you've actually done, you're just as much of a villain as Ted Bundy in the first place. It's not a case of yeah, but now you can go be a villain. It's more like, you ARE a villain in the first place anyway. At worst, you can go on and continue to be one. Or you can ask Jesus for a pardon.

Also, whether Paul himself was a gnostic or not, it does sorta align with the whole gnostic/initiation-cult views. For those you are trapped in this world, and only the secret knowledge can offer a way out. It doesn't matter whether you're a villain or not, it just matters whether you can get out or not.

Hell, for some not only will obeying the rules not save you, but obeying the rules is what is trapping you in this crappy lower universe in the first place. E.g., take the Cainites. These guys literally revered the first murderer. Literally, the biblical guy who invented murder was their hero, not villain. Because again, for them obeying the rules of the lower demiurge who created this world is what traps you here. Actually going out and doing some murder, theft, adultery and a good bit of coveting the neighbour's ass, is how you might save yourself. Though the secret knowledge is still the better bet.


TL;DR: actually it's intentional, rather than "getting it wrong."

Indeed... ... and in regards to the OP.... QED!!!

 

[Leumas]

That's getting away from what is a prophecy and what isn't. It literally only means you've been given a message by God or a similar supernatural creature. That's all. It's not the same as being a messiah, nor being some great religious authority figure, nor even the message actually being of some great importance, nor anything.

In ancient Israel, we see IIRC in Josephus a prophecy being just that someone will be murdered on the road. Not even a king or governor or anything.

Literally, if I had a 'prophetic' dream that mom will cancel her flight back, and it actually happens, I'm a prophet. The bar is literally that low. (BTW, that actually happened at one point. So I AM the sena... err... a prophet)

 

[xjx388]

Yes it is according to the very words of Jesus himself...

• Matthew 7:15-20 “Beware of false prophets, who come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly they are ravenous wolves. You will know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes from thornbushes or figs from thistles? Even so, every good tree bears good fruit, but a bad tree bears bad fruit. A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, nor can a bad tree bear good fruit. Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. Therefore by their fruits you will know them.

Yes... and Christianity has been utilized for countless crimes and used by countless villains and kings and priests and brigands and nasty people to promulgate and condone and justify their actions as is evinced by HISTORY

• Christian Atrocities
• Victims Of Christianity
• Christian Violence

Yes, all of that is true. So what? Christianity is a man-made tool to exercise power. So is every other religion. But there are indeed some people who do not see it as inherently evil and do try to practice the message. Like everything else, it CAN be used to justify evil, but it can also be used as a force for good. Catholic Charities, for example, has done good work here ensuring that illegal immigrants are given food, shelter, clothing and transportation. I have volunteered with them myself and seen it first hand: it’s a religious organization that is doing good things for real people.

Yes... well said... QED!!!

But it’s only part of the story. You can’t ignore the parts of the story that don’t prove what you want proven.

This is a misrepresentation... I suggest you read the OP carefully and slowly and see if you can figure out what it says again... it does not say what you are mistakenly misrepresenting it to say.

Taken as a whole, your body of work seems to suggest that anyone who follows Christianity is a part of this evil by, at the very least, passively allowing the evil to occur.

 

[Myriad]

More perfidy and mendacity...

More vain low-effort attempts to deflect responsibility for your dishonest discourse.

You posted a deceptively abridged quotation to argue that a particular Bible passage said something substantially different than what it actually says. Now it's abundantly clear that you just don't want to own up to it.

thanks again!!!... do keep them coming...

No problem.

 

[Leumas]

More vain low-effort attempts to deflect responsibility for your dishonest discourse.

You posted a deceptively abridged quotation to argue that a particular Bible passage said something substantially different than what it actually says. Now it's abundantly clear that you just don't want to own up to it.

Incessantly repeating perfidy and mendacity will not make it stick... but keep trying... maybe "alternative facts" might become on your side as it has become on the side of other mendacities in our milieu these days.

 

[Leumas]

Yes, all of that is true. So what? Christianity is a man-made tool to exercise power.

Well done... you are right... QED!!!

Taken as a whole, your body of work seems to suggest that anyone who follows Christianity is a part of this evil by, at the very least, passively allowing the evil to occur.

Abysmal failure in reading comprehension... I suggest you try again.... here is a hint... try to read what you see on the page instead of what you want it to say and what you have read somewhere else... that might help.

 

[Myriad]

Incessantly repeating perfidy and mendacity will not make it stick... but keep trying... maybe "alternative facts" might become on your side as it has become on the side of other mendacities in our milieu these days.

Incessantly repeating a simple demonstrable fact might make it stick (depending on whether the audience cares about facts, of course).

Apathia posted this:

Jesus.
Such a villain!
He should have been crucified!

To which you replied in the very next post:

According to the Old Tall tales, that is exactly what it says should have been done to him... especially when you take things like what he said in Matthew 19:12 and compare it to Deuteronomy 23:1-2... or what he said in Matthew 8:22 and compare it to the 5th commandment (Exodus 20:12).

• Deuteronomy 13:1-5 If there arise among you a prophet, or a dreamer of dreams, and giveth thee a sign or a wonder, and the sign or the wonder come to pass... Thou shalt not hearken unto the words of that prophet, or that dreamer of dreams: for YHWH your God proveth you, to know whether ye love YHWH your God with all your heart and with all your soul... keep his commandments... and that prophet, or that dreamer of dreams, shall be put to death....

That's exactly your formatting and highlighting. But here's what Deuteronomy 13:1-5 actually says:

If there arises among you a prophet or a dreamer of dreams, and he gives you a sign or a wonder, and the sign or the wonder comes to pass, of which he spoke to you, saying, ‘Let us go after other gods’—which you have not known—‘and let us serve them,’ you shall not listen to the words of that prophet or that dreamer of dreams, for the LORD your God is testing you to know whether you love the LORD your God with all your heart and with all your soul. You shall walk after the LORD your God and fear Him, and keep His commandments and obey His voice; you shall serve Him and hold fast to Him. But that prophet or that dreamer of dreams shall be put to death...

My highlighting this time. See the difference?

You might have intended to argue the "keep His commandments" angle instead, but the clear meaning of the passage links the "shall be put to death" with the prophet/dreamer saying to serve or worship other gods. Which you (or the source you got the quote from) concealed by omitting those phrases from the quote.

 

[xjx388]

Oh, I've read what you said.

You say Christianity is evil to the core. It not only foments villainy, it actively encourages it. The proof of this is directly in the Bible. And apparently, any disagreement with this fundamental iniquity of Christianity is dishonesty (perfidy and mendacity, as you say, which seems a bit redundant, but whatever) and bad reasoning.

Given that this is your position, I really don't see how you could possibly think there are "good Christians." Indeed, in the other thread, you linked to an old post of yours where you talk about how another poster's father is part of the evil because they cause harm, at least indirectly, by being passive or willfully blind about the degeneracy of the core religion.

I disagree with your central argument, that Christianity is inherently evil and encourages evil behavior. The message of Jesus is one of love and forgiveness and you really have to ignore and literalize large chunks of the Bible, New Testament in particular, in order to miss that.

I am fully aware that Christianity can be and is used to justify actions that are harmful. But this is true of just about any philosophy or religion, so you aren't really saying anything groundbreaking here -that's just human nature. Christianity can also be used as a force for good in the world by people who interpret the message to be about love and forgiveness -by using Christ and God as "motivation," to overcome the inherent wickedness of human nature. Those people exist too.

 

[The Great Zaganza]

When many use Bible quotes to prove how great Christianity is, I guess it's fair to use Bible quotes to prove how terrible it is.

Of course, both are wrong, since Christianity has almost entirely (but not quite) nothing to do with the Bible.

 

[acbytesla]

Including the villains... and thus Christianity can be picked to be a warrant for villainy... QED!!!

Sure it can. So can a lot of books. I don't disagree. That said, it takes some very unusual and unique interpretation of many of the verses you posted.

 

[HansMustermann]

@Myriad
You seem to misunderstand the point he's making. The point he's making is that with all those miracles and prophecies, Jesus is trying to get people to worship him instead of Yahweh. In fact, depending how you read Paul, Jesus may be some sort of substitute for God now.

And IF Jesus was a gnostic -- which is one big IF, but it's a possibility, as there ARE gnostic gospels -- then he's definitely saying that the God of those guys' ancestors is a lesser demiurge, and they should strive to raise themselves towards the real divinity.

Both are stuff that, yes, should have gotten him stoned.

Now mind you, Xianity has had the time to find some convoluted explanation around that. Starting with the idea that Jesus and the Father are the same God, hence, he isn't REALLY telling anyone to follow a different God.

But still, just clarifying what Leumas was saying there, since his style of... seemingly random highlighting, and even more random snipping, don't seem to help. No, he's not ignoring the part where that prophet tells you to serve other gods.

 

[Leumas]

@Myriad
You seem to misunderstand the point he's making. The point he's making is that with all those miracles and prophecies, Jesus is trying to get people to worship him instead of Yahweh. In fact, depending how you read Paul, Jesus may be some sort of substitute for God now.

And IF Jesus was a gnostic -- which is one big IF, but it's a possibility, as there ARE gnostic gospels -- then he's definitely saying that the God of those guys' ancestors is a lesser demiurge, and they should strive to raise themselves towards the real divinity.

Both are stuff that, yes, should have gotten him stoned.

Now mind you, Xianity has had the time to find some convoluted explanation around that. Starting with the idea that Jesus and the Father are the same God, hence, he isn't REALLY telling anyone to follow a different God.

But still, just clarifying what Leumas was saying there, since his style of... seemingly random highlighting, and even more random snipping, don't seem to help. No, he's not ignoring the part where that prophet tells you to serve other gods.

Indeed... but also

1. I gave the verses citation so that anyone with a couple of grey cells that have not yet been consumed by the religion syphilitic parasite can read the full verses for themselves
2. I snipped the full lengthy stuff because this is a policy here anyway on the forum not to quote entire stuff that people can look at for themselves somewhere else
3. I also do not care about that part because I was responding to the other person and the point was about YHWH commanding the killing of FALSE PROPHETS which is what Jesus was
4. He made the point about Jesus not telling people to follow other gods as is in the full text.... BUT I GAVE HIM THIS ANSWER which he has very perfidiously ignored.... and which shreds his point... and kept repeating his perfidy as if I never answered him.

And did Jesus tell them to follow or worship other gods? (You know, like it says in the part of your quote that somehow accidentally got turned into ellipsis.) What verse was that in?

Yes... himself... as the second god in the trinity of gods.

• John 1:1-14 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.... And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.
• 1 John 5:7-8 For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost, and these three are one. And there are three that bear witness in earth, the Spirit, and the water, and the blood, and these three agree in one.
• John 10:30 I and the Father are one.
• John 8:58-59 Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am. Then took they up stones to cast at him: but Jesus hid himself, and went out of the temple, going through the midst of them, and so passed by.

Also see these verses ... did Jesus break all of those??

• Deuteronomy 4:2 Ye shall not add unto the word which I command you, neither shall ye diminish ought from it, that ye may keep the commandments of YHWH your God which I command you.
• Deuteronomy 4:40 Thou shalt keep therefore his statutes, and his commandments, which I command thee this day, that it may go well with thee, and with thy children after thee, and that thou mayest prolong thy days upon the earth, which YHWH thy God giveth thee, for ever.

 

[Leumas]

Sure it can....

Good... QED!!!

So can a lot of books.

Defense lawyer: Your honor and gentle folks of the jury... is my client GUILTY... sure he is .... but so many other people are guilty too
Prosecution: Your honor... objection ... this is.... uhhh
Judge: Sustained....
Jury: GUILTY!!!

I don't disagree.

Good.... QED!!!

That said, it takes some very unusual and unique interpretation of many of the verses you posted.

Nope it does not... and maybe you cannot do it... but villains and brigands and Kings and filthy priests and their filthier confessors and seminary school graduates can do it very very easily.... in fact look at the history of the POPES of the RCC... it is rife with the most vile humans that ever existed.... yet they were the Popes.

Can you please answer these questions:

....
Also... consider this... what if a naughty boy like this grows up to still believe in the tenets of christianity... and decides to join seminary and become a clergy... and he learns more in depth about the NUANCES of the facts in the OP... and tells himself...

Self... it is ok to succumb to the sordid temptations I feel burning inside me... because all I have to do is confess and repent and Jesus will still welcome me as the lost sheep in his parable.​

Would he be wrong in thinking that way... I do not mean immoral... I mean not in full compliance with the tenets he was taught???
Let me ask you another question... there is only two answers ... as you are fond of saying...

There are two religions

• Says that you can believe in any god or gods you want and do any rituals you want... the only tenet is to not harm any people and not to cheat and not to lie and not to etc. etc. ... after death you will be judged not according to any beliefs or rituals you performed... but according to the net balance of good and evil you did.
• Says that you have to believe in this one god and do what he wants the way he wants it done... when you die you will be judged NOT according to what you did or did not do or how much good or evil you did... you will be judged according to the amount of faith and obeisance you had for this one god.

Which of these two religions do you think will foment less evil and more good???

 

[acbytesla]

Defense lawyer: Your honor and gentle folks of the jury... is my client GUILTY... sure he is .... but so many other people are guilty too
Prosecution: Your honor... objection ... this is.... uhhh
Judge: Sustained....
Jury: GUILTY!!!

Nope it does not... and maybe you cannot do it... but villains and brigands and Kings and filthy priests and their filthier confessors and seminary school graduates can do it very very easily.... in fact look at the history of the POPES of the RCC... it is rife with the most vile humans that ever existed.... yet they were the Popes.

You're missing the point. People, you, me, everyone have particular biases. We can both read the same bible verse and interpret them in dramatically different ways. So it can and is warrant if that be your interpretation. But I don't read those verses the way you do.

As I said, you can do this with just about anything. I see people doing this with the Constitution.