Ed Christianity Foments Villainy

[Leumas]

Depends on what "believe in Jesus" means ....

Sounds like your argument falls over nowadays at that point I'm afraid Leumas. God for the win!

Nope... REDEFINING christianity as not what Jesus CHRIST said or not what is said in the New Tall tales (NT) does not absolve Jesus or christianity.... this is called the Bill Clinton ruse.

Defense lawyer: Your honor after all is my client's murder of his wife a crime... does it not depend on how you define crime... and who is to know is he him or him he what does the word he mean and is is or not???
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will not pass muster with any honest or rational judge... unless of course they were appointed by Trump.

The idea is that "following Jesus" is done by helping others, regardless of whether you know about Jesus or not.

This statement is definitively riven by these verses...

• John 14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.
• John 6:47-51 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me hath everlasting life. I am that bread of life. Your fathers did eat manna in the wilderness, and are dead. This is the bread which cometh down from heaven, that a man may eat thereof, and not die. I am the living bread which came down from heaven: if any man eat of this bread, he shall live for ever: and the bread that I will give is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world.
• Matthew 20:16 So the last shall be first, and the first last: for many be called, but few chosen.
• Mark 6:11 And whosoever shall not receive you, nor hear you, ... Verily I say unto you, It shall be more tolerable for Sodom and Gomorrha in the day of judgment, than for that city.
• John 15:6-7 If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned. If ye abide in me, and my words abide in you, ye shall ask what ye will, and it shall be done unto you.
• 1 Timothy 2:5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus
• Ephesians 2:8-9 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast.

And this OP is about villains who already christian... and their victims who became apostates if they despaired the impotence and disinclination of JEsus to stave off the villains... and victims who did hear of Jesus and decided not to believe him.

Here are some more verses you have not cherry picked...

• Mark 16:16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.
• John 3:18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
• John 3:36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.
• Galatians 3:13 Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law,...
• Romans 3:28 Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law
• Romans 10:9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.

In fact, there are various passages in the Bible that get used to show what was required. I like this one in the Gospel of Matthew:
The idea is that "following Jesus" is done by helping others, regardless of whether you know about Jesus or not.

Yes you can cherry pick the stuff you like... but a brigand and a vile priest and a villain will also cherry pick the ones they like... much like the abolitionists cherry picked the bits they like and the slave owning confederates picked the ones they liked and kept on owning slaves and abusing them and killing abolitionists and still going to church and sleeping soundly at night.

And the OP was about how Christianity foments villainy ... and as is evident by the history of Christianity and the above Confederates example... it most irrefragably DOES!!!


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[Leumas]

There's a reason there is about 45,000 different Christian denominations. They view the tenets differently. I use to think the way I interpreted the Bible was bizarrely different than what I had been taught. Christianity is dramatically different then it was hundreds of years ago and that is very different than it was in the first few centuries.

Everyone picks and chooses. Everyone.

Including the villains... and thus Christianity can be picked to be a warrant for villainy... QED!!!

 

[acbytesla]

Including the villains... and thus Christianity can be picked to be a warrant for villainy... QED!!!

That's one way to look at it. We read what we already see in its passages.

 

[xjx388]

Including the villains... and thus Christianity can be picked to be a warrant for villainy... QED!!!

Anything can be picked to be a warrant for villainy, though. You might as well be trying to convince us that water is wet.

ETA: That people can read whatever they want into a religion and use it to justify their crimes is not a damnation of that religion as a whole nor every adherent. Yes, Christian belief can be, to use your favorite words, a festering hive of perfidy and mendacity but to say that every adherent is guilty of such is painting with too broad a brush.

 

[Leumas]

I get you read this in a literal sense, much like fundamentalist read biblical texts in a literal way, when it suits their agenda.

Yes... exactly like Televangelists and Mega Church grifters and violating priests and their confessor priests and Kings and brigands and villains.

Which means that they too find a warrant in christianity for their vile misdeeds.... QED.

...Do I think maybe it should have been made more clear that he was (allegedly) saying this as a metaphor?

Yup... casuistry is also used by Televangelists and Mega Church grifters and violating priests and their confessor priests and Kings and brigands and villains.

Which means that they too find a warrant in christianity for their vile misdeeds.... QED.

Seriously dude?? Can you quote the passage where he forcefully "made" her?? Would you have interpreted it differently if she had kissed him on the cheek?

If a woman came to you and fell at your feet and started kissing them and shedding tears on them and wiping them with her hair... would you just let her do it???

Or would you lift her up before she even finished the first kiss???

Anyone who lets this happen is a cad and he made her kiss his feet and grovel and humiliate herself.

In the context of the story, he wasn't pretending. Since I don't believe the story literally, I don't get offended by it, no more than I get offended by the Jedi using their powers to do cool or helpful things.

But Televangelists and Mega Church grifters and violating priests and their confessor priests and Kings and brigands and villains... do not think it is all fakery... they believe it.

Which means that they find a warrant in christianity for their vile misdeeds.... QED.

And since you think it is all fakery... why are you even here defending it???

If you can prove that it was physical castration, No. Good luck with that...

Yes I can prove it ... with Jesus' own words... and the fact that many Christians did take literally and did the sordid misdeed to themselves (e.g. St. Origin)... there was even a whole sect of christianity that did that.

Now let's see how Jesus's own words show that it is meant to be LITERAL...

• Matthew 19:12 12 For there are some eunuchs, which were so born from their mother's womb: and there are some eunuchs, which were made eunuchs of men: and there be eunuchs, which have made themselves eunuchs for the kingdom of heaven's sake. He that is able to receive it, let him receive it.

Eunuchs born that way is not metaphorical ... nor eunuchs who were castrated by other men.... and thus when it comes to him talking about the ones who made themselves eunuchs it does not all of a sudden become a metaphor except for ones who are suffering from the most acute Cognitive Dissonance.

see above

• Matthew 8:21-22 another of the disciples said to him, “Lord, let me first go and bury my father.” And Jesus said to him, Follow me, and leave the dead to bury their own dead.

forget about it... let the ones who are not in my cult do the work of burying your dead father you need to come and follow me now I am not waiting....

Especially when combined with the verses in here...

• Luke 14:26 If anyone comes to me and does not hate father and mother, wife and children, brothers and sisters—yes, even their own life—such a person cannot be my disciple.
• Matthew 10:34-35 Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword. For I am come to set a man at variance against his father, and the daughter against her mother, and the daughter in law against her mother in law.

In the context of the story, yeah. See above. If someone offered me a billion dollars, Id stop working. As it is, I work 6o hours a week and I don't have much time to respond to your ridiculous posts, but I'm putting in a final 2 pennies before I'm unfortunately forced by the need to pay my rent to bow out. Thanks!

This is risible piffle... Jesus did not have a million anything to offer them he was a hobo mendicant.

Do you save... do you think about the future of your finances??? Jesus giving such bad advice is not cool.

If I thought it was literal, no--but it wasn't literal. You'd have to have a pretty low intelligence to think otherwise.

Yes... but couldn't Jesus have used less vile imbecilic "metaphors" that idiots can take literally and cause themselves harm because of the incompetent way Jesus spoke claptrap??? This is definitely not cool.

Nope!

Do you know how much misery and torture and torment and mayhem and injustice this sordid tenet of no divorce and remarry... being taken literally... has caused??

Yes! If I were rich that is pretty much exactly what I would do. I would not consider myself a "mendicant hobo" (your words, not his) but yeah I think it was cool.

Would it not be better if you used your riches to instigate programs that create jobs and improve conditions for the poor and initiate housing projects and other such programs... instead of just selling everything and giving the cash to the poor???

Couldn't Jesus have told him to go and use his riches to improve the lives of the poor for the long run instead of one ephemeral one time???

Jesus is not cool.... he is an imbecile.... to say the least.



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[Leumas]

That's one way to look at it. We read what we already see in its passages.

And those passages have all the WARRANT FOR VILLAINY right there in them in black and red-letters of the words of Jesus himself... QED!!!

 

[The Great Zaganza]

Leumas, have you always felt that Christianity is a tool for protecting criminals?
Or was there a time when you thought it was a decent Religion?

 

[Leumas]

Anything can be picked to be a warrant for villainy, though. You might as well be trying to convince us that water is wet.

ETA: That people can read whatever they want into a religion and use it to justify their crimes is not a damnation of that religion as a whole nor every adherent. Yes, Christian belief can be, to use your favorite words, a festering hive of perfidy and mendacity but to say that every adherent is guilty of such is painting with too broad a brush.

Yes it is according to the very words of Jesus himself...

• Matthew 7:15-20 “Beware of false prophets, who come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly they are ravenous wolves. You will know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes from thornbushes or figs from thistles? Even so, every good tree bears good fruit, but a bad tree bears bad fruit. A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, nor can a bad tree bear good fruit. Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. Therefore by their fruits you will know them.

Anything can be picked to be a warrant for villainy, though. You might as well be trying to convince us that water is wet.

Yes... and Christianity has been utilized for countless crimes and used by countless villains and kings and priests and brigands and nasty people to promulgate and condone and justify their actions as is evinced by HISTORY

• Christian Atrocities
• Victims Of Christianity
• Christian Violence

...Yes, Christian belief can be, to use your favorite words, a festering hive of perfidy and mendacity

Yes... well said... QED!!!

but to say that every adherent is guilty of such is painting with too broad a brush.

This is a misrepresentation... I suggest you read the OP carefully and slowly and see if you can figure out what it says again... it does not say what you are mistakenly misrepresenting it to say.

 

[Leumas]

...Or was there a time when you thought it was a decent Religion?

I never thought it was a decent religion except when I was a mindless child who did not think it was decent but rather did not think about it one way or the other.

When I was 17 for the summer holidays I decided to read the Torah (a.k.a. Old Tall tales OT) carefully and analytically and slowly... not in a mantra chanting way... and see for myself if my brainwashing was justified.

By Genesis 2 I realized that YHWH is a lesser god and not a creator but rather the molder and cloner of two callow gardeners to be his slave workers.

By the end of Leviticus I decided this YHWH is a self-projection by some tawdry mountebanks, onto a despotic slave mongering ethnic cleansing human sacrifice demanding voodoo rituals prescribing witches proscribing hexed potions commanding misogynistic misanthropic racist bigoted benighted late-bronze-age tribalist myth.

Next summer I read the rest of the Tanakh and I was decisively assured of my previous summer's conclusions.

The summer after that I read the New Tall tales (NT) just to be fair... and had the most satisfactory guffaws that I ever had... I did a lot of the reading on my numerous train commutes at the time.... and people on the train must have thought I was demented from the amount of intermittent laughter I suddenly broke out into.

By the end of Matthew 2 I was fully convinced that the NT was abject prattle by benighted perfidious charlatans.... but I persevered and read all of it and Paul fully cemented for me that it was a beguiling crafty hoax by dissimulating cultists.

Leumas, have you always felt that Christianity is a tool for protecting criminals?

If I had to choose the most heinous ONE verse from the NT which proves that... it would be James 2:25.... but of course read my OP.... this kind of realization occurred to me over years of continued study... and of course reading HISTORY.

You ought to read this book also this one and this one... they will make it clear.



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[Hlafordlaes]

Insofar as any given sect of any given religion or political philosophy believe they possess absolute truth, they will go about doing far more damage than good. Christianity and Islam have final prophets, ending the need to wait on more learning, therefore acting as starting gun for a race to tyranny.

 

[Leumas]

Insofar as any given sect of any given religion or political philosophy believe they possess absolute truth, they will go about doing far more damage than good. Christianity and Islam have final prophets, ending the need to wait on more learning, therefore acting as starting gun for a race to tyranny.

Well said...

Insofar as any given sect of any given religion or political philosophy believe they possess absolute truth, they will go about doing far more damage than good. Christianity and Islam have final prophets, ending the need to wait on more learning, therefore acting as starting gun for a race to tyranny.

By the way... so does Judaism... in so far that Judaism is waiting for a messiah... christianity is too (Jesus second coming) and so is Islam (Mehdi or even Jesus)... so that does not count.

 

[HansMustermann]

Well, the same can be said about anything else, really. For example, you can find the occasional guy with a Ph.D. in biology, who doesn't believe in evolution. No, literally, see Behe. You can find the occasional doctor who believes Corona is a conspiracy. Etc.

I think it's fair though to criticize the parts that are core tenets of all the major denominations, though. You'd be surprised how many of the minor ones are covered too, though. Like, you'll even find Mythical Jesus proponents who still think they can only be saved by Mythical Jesus, and now that's one that's nowhere near mainstream.

It may not apply to flavours like some versions of Gnosticism or Arianism, but meh, I'd rather give those a nod and move on than be paralysed by the Nirvana/Perfect Solution fallacy.

 

[HansMustermann]

By the way... so does Judaism... in so far that Judaism is waiting for a messiah... christianity is too (Jesus second coming) and so is Islam (Mehdi or even Jesus)... so that does not count.

That's not the same thing:

Islam claims that the final prophet has already happened, none others can come at any point after that.

Judaism has currently no such limit AFAIK. TBH even after the messianic age starts, I'm not aware of anything in the OT that says God can't send more messages through someone. Which is really all that a prophet was. Someone wakes up from a dream with some messages from God, that's it, that's all he/she needs to be a prophet.

Christianity -- at least the mainstream versions -- also doesn't really seem to have any such limitation. I mean, even in the Bible itself, Revelation is just that: a prophecy. That happened after Jesus.

Hell, technically all the guys claiming Jesus told them to run for congress or president or whatnot, are technically claiming to be prophets. (Which begs for the question: shouldn't we stone them to death when it doesn't come to pass?)

 

[HansMustermann]

Also about Origen... first of all it's Origen, not Origin, but I suppose typos happen to all of us. Still, just to make clear.

Second, calling him "St Origen" gave me a chuckle. Origen is actually IIRC the only guy considered a church father (not by everyone, tho; e.g., the Orthodox don't), but NOT a saint. Which is a fancy way of saying they actually think he went to hell for his devout efforts

 

[Leumas]

...
I think it's fair though to criticize the parts that are core tenets of all the major denominations, though. You'd be surprised how many of the minor ones are covered too, though. Like, you'll even find Mythical Jesus proponents who still think they can only be saved by Mythical Jesus, and now that's one that's nowhere near mainstream.

Yup... and you cannot get more core than the words of Jesus himself as purported by the NT itself.... no??

It may not apply to flavours like some versions of Gnosticism or Arianism, but meh, I'd rather give those a nod and move on than be paralysed by the Nirvana/Perfect Solution fallacy.

EXACTLY!!!

And History proves the countless misdeeds of christians using christianity as their DIVINE FIAT and an ESCAPE CLAUSE.

Well, the same can be said about anything else, really. For example, you can find the occasional guy with a Ph.D. in biology, who doesn't believe in evolution. No, literally, see Behe. You can find the occasional doctor who believes Corona is a conspiracy. Etc.

Yes... but... christianity is supposed to be a DIVINE revelation by the creator of the universe the one and only omnipotent omniscient omnibenevolent omnipresent GOD... and the road to eternal salvation or eternal torment.... so it is not quite the same as "anything" of human endeavors or even other gods.... couldn't this supreme God have gotten it right so as to not leave ESCAPE CLAUSES for villains to self-ratify their misdeeds like in other not so divine affairs?

Here is a scenario which I doubt can be matched by anything else... what answers would you give to the highlighted questions?

...
Also... consider this... what if a naughty boy like this grows up to still believe in the tenets of christianity... and decides to join seminary and become a clergy... and he learns more in depth about the NUANCES of the facts in the OP... and tells himself...

Self... it is ok to succumb to the sordid temptations I feel burning inside me... because all I have to do is confess and repent and Jesus will still welcome me as the lost sheep in his parable.​

Would he be wrong in thinking that way... I do not mean immoral... I mean not in full compliance with the tenets he was taught???
Let me ask you another question... there is only two answers ... as you are fond of saying...

There are two religions

• Says that you can believe in any god or gods you want and do any rituals you want... the only tenet is to not harm any people and not to cheat and not to lie and not to etc. etc. ... after death you will be judged not according to any beliefs or rituals you performed... but according to the net balance of good and evil you did.
• Says that you have to believe in this one god and do what he wants the way he wants it done... when you die you will be judged NOT according to what you did or did not do or how much good or evil you did... you will be judged according to the amount of faith and obeisance you had for this one god.

Which of these two religions do you think will foment less evil and more good???

 

[Leumas]

That's not the same thing:

Islam claims that the final prophet has already happened, none others can come at any point after that.

I thought they believed in the second coming of Jesus and others are waiting for the Mahdi or something... no??

Judaism has currently no such limit AFAIK. TBH even after the messianic age starts, I'm not aware of anything in the OT that says God can't send more messages through someone. Which is really all that a prophet was. Someone wakes up from a dream with some messages from God, that's it, that's all he/she needs to be a prophet.

The Rabbis keep telling me that the age of prophecy is gone.

Christianity -- at least the mainstream versions -- also doesn't really seem to have any such limitation. I mean, even in the Bible itself, Revelation is just that: a prophecy. That happened after Jesus.

Well ... the ones in the NT are apostles and disciples... not prophets per se... in any case technically Jesus is not a prophet either... no??

Hell, technically all the guys claiming Jesus told them to run for congress or president or whatnot, are technically claiming to be prophets. (Which begs for the question: shouldn't we stone them to death when it doesn't come to pass?)

I think we should .



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[Leumas]

Also about Origen... first of all it's Origen, not Origin, but I suppose typos happen to all of us. Still, just to make clear.

Second, calling him "St Origen" gave me a chuckle. Origen is actually IIRC the only guy considered a church father (not by everyone, tho; e.g., the Orthodox don't), but NOT a saint. Which is a fancy way of saying they actually think he went to hell for his devout efforts

Thanks for the corrections... noted

 

[GDon]

Nope... REDEFINING christianity as not what Jesus CHRIST said or not what is said in the New Tall tales (NT) does not absolve Jesus or christianity

It must make you mad when Christians do that! The only True Christianity is believing what the Bible says, right Leumas? All those Christians like the Pope who cherry-pick from the Bible, they are not good Christians. Would you agree?

Yes you can cherry pick the stuff you like...

Thank you!

but a brigand and a vile priest and a villain will also cherry pick the ones they like... much like the abolitionists cherry picked the bits they like and the slave owning confederates picked the ones they liked and kept on owning slaves and abusing them and killing abolitionists and still going to church and sleeping soundly at night.

(1) Do you think it is wrong to do that, Leumas? If so, tell me clearly why that is wrong. Is it spiritually wrong? Morally wrong? Logically wrong?

(2) Who gets to decide what the Bible really means? You?

(3) If Christians didn't cherry-pick, would that foment more villainy or less villainy, in your opinion?

 

[Leumas]

It must make you mad when Christians do that! The only True Christianity is believing what the Bible says, right Leumas? All those Christians like the Pope who cherry-pick from the Bible, they are not good Christians. Would you agree?


Thank you!


(1) Do you think it is wrong to do that, Leumas? If so, tell me clearly why that is wrong. Is it spiritually wrong? Morally wrong? Logically wrong?

(2) Who gets to decide what the Bible really means? You?

(3) If Christians didn't cherry-pick, would that foment more villainy or less villainy, in your opinion?

I suggest you read the OP again...slowly and carefully and if there are words that you do not understand like villains and brigands and victims and so on please look them up.

You have evidently manufactured your own version of the OP and are arguing against it ... nothing to do with the OP I am afraid.

When you have done that and are sure you know what the OP is saying come back and argue against that instead of the strawman you have created.


ETA: here let me help you out... why don't you steelman the OP and write down what it is saying.... start there... then argue against that instead of the fallacious strawmanning you are engaging in.

 

[Warp12]

The humorous part is spending pages on this...only to have God smite you in the end, at best. I am curious as to why you devote such time to this...in either way, it is just folly.