The God Paradox

[stanfr]

The problem is it is hard to influence people that way. I'm a salesman. Years selling high end IT equipment. The fastest way to alienate a prospect is to tell them they are wrong. They dig in harder.

Bingo!

ETA: Although i somewhat agree with Leumas (horrors) that the time to play nice with the crazed theocratic right is pretty much done--gotta fight fire with fire.

 

[stanfr]

Dennett is making my point. You're not going to sway the hard core Christians. They will die with their beliefs. Despite the Christian fascists, religion is on its way out. Every generation is seeing fewer and fewer adherents.

I'm worried about what happens to the country over the next ten years, but I don’t think this lasts for more than a generation or two.

Completely agree, and have hope for the younger generations, but yeah it could get far uglier first. And it's not just Christianity, it is Trumpism, which is a patriarchal worship of authoritarianism in the hopes of saving white privilege, and while Christianity certainly embraces some of that, it does not have a complete monopoly on it.

 

[acbytesla]

Fine, I mentioned '3' already, and 4 is irrelevant to aGod nyone posting in this thread. The OP won't respond with any of those four.



I would not quibble with most of that, except I disagree to the extent it is 'evil to the core'--that would require a deep delve into the teachings of Christ (per NT) and that is pretty far off topic. You are referring to the *actions* of christians and not the core tenets of the faith, the ones I learned as a kid. They were based on fairy tales, but they are most certainly not "evil" If you can demonstrate that unconditional love is somehow evil, I might be convinced.

Except the foundation of Christianity is God. The being that drowned all but a tiny few of the living beings on the planet. Also the law giver who said " thou shall not suffer a Witch to live." And homosexuality is an abomination. And that if a groom discovers that his bride isn't a virgin he has a duty to kill her. And to take your slaves from the heathen around you. And women are the property of their father. He chooses their husband or may sell them as slaves.

And in the New Testament doesn't actually change any of the law. We also see the invention of eternal torture for simply not believing that which is unbelievable.

 

[Leumas]

LOL...yeah I'm sure like Leumas you believe that Jesus was pure evil cause he withered a fig tree. Been there, heard that crap.

Nope ... it is a cumulative case of pure evil over pure evil compounded with more pure evil with icing of pure evil to finish the poisonous cake... I suggest however that you go there to argue the case by answering these questions.

ETA: or you can go here ... I made this especially for you.

 

[Leumas]

Bingo!

ETA: Although i somewhat agree with Leumas (horrors) that the time to play nice with the crazed theocratic right is pretty much done--gotta fight fire with fire.

WOW... ... I did not think that I would ever agree with you on anything... well done... Bingo back to you!!!

Completely agree, and have hope for the younger generations, but yeah it could get far uglier first. And it's not just Christianity, it is Trumpism, which is a patriarchal worship of authoritarianism in the hopes of saving white privilege, and while Christianity certainly embraces some of that, it does not have a complete monopoly on it.

WOW twice in a row... are you alright... Bingo again!!!

 

[Leumas]

Except the foundation of Christianity is God. The being that drowned all but a tiny few of the living beings on the planet. Also the law giver who said " thou shall not suffer a Witch to live." And homosexuality is an abomination. And that if a groom discovers that his bride isn't a virgin he has a duty to kill her. And to take your slaves from the heathen around you. And women are the property of their father. He chooses their husband or may sell them as slaves.

And in the New Testament doesn't actually change any of the law. We also see the invention of eternal torture for simply not believing that which is unbelievable.

It is not just the Old Tall tales... Christianity Foments Villainy as part and parcel of its core tenets.

 

[Explorer]

Personally, I am quite happy with the nitrogen cycle, and it has never impacted on my belief in a deity or otherwise.

However, I am very much unhappy with the fact that my telomeres cause my body to self destruct after 70 years or so, just when I am beginning to gain a degree of wisdom about how to live my life better and relate to my fellow human beings.

 

[Leumas]

Personally, I am quite happy with the nitrogen cycle, and it has never impacted on my belief in a deity or otherwise.

However, I am very much unhappy with the fact that my telomeres cause my body to self destruct after 70 years or so, just when I am beginning to gain a degree of wisdom about how to live my life better and relate to my fellow human beings.

Yes... I am happy too that you have never been infected with these gastro intestinal parasites...

• amebiasis
• giardiasis
• hookworm
• strongyloidiasis
• trichuriasis
• pinworm
• tapeworm
• trichinosis
• clonorchis
• opisthorchis
• coccidiosis
• paragonimiasis
• echinococcus

Nor have you been blighted with these gastrointestinal diseases

• Anal Fissure and Fistula
• Anal Itching
• Ascites
• Closure of Colostomy
• Colitis
• Constipation
• Diarrhea
• Hemorrhoids
• Hiatal Hernia
• Inflammatory Bowel Disease
• Intraabdominal Infection
• Irritable Bowel Syndrome
• Malabsorption Syndrome
• Mucositis
• Pancreatitis
• Peptic Ulcer
• Postoperative Ileus
• Small Bowel Bacterial Overgrowth
• Small Bowel or Pancreatic Fistula
• Stomach Ulcer
• Dumping Syndrome
• Duodenal Ulcer
• Esophageal Disease
• Fecal Incontinence
• Functional Gastric Disorder
• Gallbladder Disease
• Gastroenteritis
• Gastrointestinal Decontamination
• Gastrointestinal Diverticula
• Gastrointestinal Hemorrhage
• Gastrointestinal Perforation
• Gastrointestinal Stromal Tumor
• Abdominal Distension
• Acute Abdomen

 

[acbytesla]

It is not just the Old Tall tales... Christianity Foments Villainy as part and parcel of its core tenets.

I don't buy your interpretation. I'm of the opinion that it is a mistake to argue scriptures that aren't clear.

 

[Leumas]

I don't buy your interpretation. I'm of the opinion that it is a mistake to argue scriptures that aren't clear.

I would LOVE to hash this with YOU ... it would be a stimulating intellectual fun.

Please go to this post and respond to it in that thread.... looking forward to your appreciated rebuttal.

 

[stanfr]

Except the foundation of Christianity is God. The being that drowned all but a tiny few of the living beings on the planet. Also the law giver who said " thou shall not suffer a Witch to live." And homosexuality is an abomination. And that if a groom discovers that his bride isn't a virgin he has a duty to kill her. And to take your slaves from the heathen around you. And women are the property of their father. He chooses their husband or may sell them as slaves.

And in the New Testament doesn't actually change any of the law. We also see the invention of eternal torture for simply not believing that which is unbelievable.

I will grant you all of that...likewise the NT doesn't significantly repeat the vengeful sadistic habits of the OT god. I'm not gonna run through every teaching of Jesus but it is pretty darn clear the overall theme is one of love, forgiveness, acceptance, humility etc etc. It really is disingenuous to suggest otherwise IMO. That argument has been done a hundred times over, just delve into the depths of this forum and you can find the OP making his case that the *real* teachings of Jesus were insidious and horrifiic, 10 years ago. There are no new arguments in the past 10 years, no minds have been changed, so there really is no point to it. I'm not even sure why I am wasting my time, I don't think ive questioned the OP in 8 years cause there is no point. Just in a foul overall mood I guess since the country is going to crap lol.

 

[stanfr]

I don't buy your interpretation. I'm of the opinion that it is a mistake to argue scriptures that aren't clear.

^^^ THIS!

 

[xjx388]

A risible false dichotomy... here is another answer....

It strikes me that, by your proffered “ways to do harm,” every single human does harm, directly or Indirectly, actively or passively, every day. Funny how you only apply it to religious people.

 

[GDon]

I don't buy your interpretation. I'm of the opinion that it is a mistake to argue scriptures that aren't clear.

Those are the most fun ones to argue! (As long as they aren't taken seriously)

 

[smartcooky]

I will grant you all of that...likewise the NT doesn't significantly repeat the vengeful sadistic habits of the OT god. I'm not gonna run through every teaching of Jesus but it is pretty darn clear the overall theme is one of love, forgiveness, acceptance, humility etc etc. It really is disingenuous to suggest otherwise IMO

I've always seen the OT as "The Bible: Part One" and the NT as "The Bible: Part Two".

The NT does not refute any of what is in the OT, nor does it advise that anything instructed in the OT should not be undertaken or believed by Christians. Indeed, in the NT, Jesus cites numerous parts of the OT, including Genesis 1:27 (as authoritative scripture), and quotes Leviticus 14:2-32, 1 Samuel 21:1-6, 2 Chronicles 24:20-21, Psalm 82:6 and Isaiah 61:1-2 among many others. The Apostle Paul quoted Exodus 20:12 when he wrote to the Ephesians and referred to Ezekiel 37:27 when he wrote to the Corinthians.

There are many, many occasions when parts of the OT are clearly referred to, alluded to or quoted in the NT.

*****

Disclaimer: As always, when I post on this subject, it is from the position of not believing in anything that was written in the OT or the NT, not believing in the reality of Historical Jesus as an individual. I merely address that which is written in the Bible in much the same way that a critic writes about the characters, events and places in a fictional book or movie.

 

[Leumas]

I've always seen the OT as "The Bible: Part One" and the NT as "The Bible: Part Two".

The NT does not refute any of what is in the OT, nor does it advise that anything instructed in the OT should not be undertaken or believed by Christians. Indeed, in the NT, Jesus cites numerous parts of the OT, including Genesis 1:27 (as authoritative scripture), and quotes Leviticus 14:2-32, 1 Samuel 21:1-6, 2 Chronicles 24:20-21, Psalm 82:6 and Isaiah 61:1-2 among many others. The Apostle Paul quoted Exodus 20:12 when he wrote to the Ephesians and referred to Ezekiel 37:27 when he wrote to the Corinthians.

There are many, many occasions when parts of the OT are clearly referred to, alluded to or quoted in the NT.

*****

Disclaimer: As always, when I post on this subject, it is from the position of not believing in anything that was written in the OT or the NT, not believing in the reality of Historical Jesus as an individual. I merely address that which is written in the Bible in much the same way that a critic writes about the characters, events and places in a fictional book or movie.

I like the disclaimer...

 

[Leumas]

It strikes me that, by your proffered “ways to do harm,” every single human does harm, directly or Indirectly, actively or passively, every day. Funny how you only apply it to religious people.

I answer this over in this post... please go there and respond further over there.... thanks!!!

Yes... but... christianity is supposed to be a DIVINE revelation by the creator of the universe the one and only omnipotent omniscient omnibenevolent omnipresent GOD... and the road to eternal salvation or eternal torment.... so it is not quite the same as "anything" of human endeavors or even other gods.... couldn't this supreme God have gotten it right so as to not leave ESCAPE CLAUSES for villains to self-ratify their misdeeds like in other not so divine affairs?

 

[psionl0]

I find it offensive that Christians labeled many unbelievers as witches and burned them at the stake or crushed them with boulders. Or drowned them in rivers or tortured them on the rack. Or draw and quartered them. Or used the bible to justify savery in America. Or discriminate against homosexuals in employment, housing and association. Or teach against science.

Or prevent women from obtaining birth control. And now prevent women from ending an unwanted pregnancy.

I wonder why you don't find it equally offensive to criminalize recreational drug use. After all, drunkenness is just another Christian prohibition.

Regardless, most of what you list is just superstitious or greedy people trying to justify themselves by quote mining the bible. You won't find any of that sanctioned in the Sermon on the Mount which pretty much supercedes the old testament.

 

[Leumas]

...
Regardless, most of what you list is just superstitious or greedy people trying to justify themselves by quote mining the bible. ...

If the bible were a good tree it would not be possible to get bad fruits out of it... says Jesus... so if those bad people can pluck bad fruits to poison with... then the whole tree is a bad tree... so says Jesus.

... You won't find any of that sanctioned in the Sermon on the Mount which pretty much supercedes the old testament.

which YHWH said is a no-no bad thing to do and anyone who says or tries to do that should be put to death... which was the fate of Jesus... ah well!!!

 

[xjx388]

If the bible were a good tree it would not be possible to get bad fruits out of it... says Jesus... so if those bad people can pluck bad fruits to poison with... then the whole tree is a bad tree... so says Jesus.




which YHWH said is a no-no bad thing to do and anyone who says or tries to do that should be put to death... which was the fate of Jesus... ah well!!!

In order to arrive at your position, you have to actually ignore or completely reinterpret large swaths of the Bible.

Not one adherent of Christianity believes that Jesus was put to death because he superseded the Old Testament. Remember, he was sent by God and His death WAS the fulfillment of the prophecies and covenants of the Old Testament. Jesus, himself, IS the New Testament of God's new covenant with his people.

If you are going to play on this playground of Christian thought, you have to follow the rules of the playground. You can't just ignore some of them or reinterpret them to fit your own purposes. As it stands, you are selectively reading Bible passages, extracting what you like from them and ignoring the rest. Of course, this is what everyone does, so you have much in common with Christians!