The God Paradox

stanfr said:
It's funny cause when I read your Jefferson quote (I graduated from his alma mater, incidentally) I immediately thought of some responses to a recent Jul 4 social media post that quoted Jefferson. They were rabidly complaining that Jefferson was a slave owner and rapist. Seems no one can be happy with anyone these days... :rolleyes:
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Go Cavaliers!!

C'mon now. TJ was an amazing man. A true renaissance man. Intelligent, thoughtful and articulate, a true man of principle. But he was born with a silver spoon. He owned a lot of slaves. But he impregnated his teenage slave Sally Hemmings.

What's really amazing was just how much he was like John Adams and just how different he was too.

We can appreciate the greatness of TJ and also recognize his flaws. Can't we?
 
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stanfr said:
You still don't get it--it flies completely over your head! Why is that, Leumas??

If you agree that there are nuances, you *must* agree that *some* christians are good. Or at least a mix of good and evil. So why can't you simply answer the question: "Do you believe all christians are evil?" with a simple "NO"???
It is the only logical response, no?? And yet you cannot muster the ability to simply state the logical conclusion... :boggled:
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You still have not read my post or my reply to your post or my reply to your reply to your post... why is that Stanfr??? Why can't you simply read my answers... it is only logical that you read my answer already given to you.

 
acbytesla said:
Go Cavaliers!!

C'mon now. TJ was an amazing man. A true renaissance man. Intelligent, thoughtful and articulate, a true man of principle. But he was born with a silver spoon. He owned a lot of slaves. But he impregnated his teenage slave Sally Hemmings.

What's really amazing was just how much he was like John Adams and just how different he was too.

We can appreciate the greatness of TJ and also recognize his flaws. Can't we?
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I certainly can! (and in my college years it was 'go tribe'...complete with a really white (and cute) blond who ran around with a tomahawk...such political correctness :D
 
Leumas said:
You still have not read my post or my reply to your post or my reply to your reply to your post... why is that Stanfr??? Why can't you simply read my answers... it is only logical that you read my answer already given to you.

[qimg]http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/imagehosting/thum_512824eb207d719dc1.jpg[/qimg]
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Oh I read your silly responses. They remind me of a Donald Trump email campaign....
*I* asked *YOU* a question, so don't think you can turn the tables. You *still* haven't responded. And given your vast vocabulary one would think it would be easy to respond with a 'Yes' or 'No' but you are incapable of it. Your fatal flaw--not mine.
 
stanfr said:
I certainly can! (and in my college years it was 'go tribe'...complete with a really white (and cute) blond who ran around with a tomahawk...such political correctness :D
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I thought UVA was the Cavaliers?

My mistake. You said his Alma Mater.
 
stanfr said:
Do you believe all christians are evil? There are only two acceptable answers.
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Actually, there are four

1. Yes
2. No
3. Don't know
4. Don't care

I am firmly in acbytesla's camp on Christianity. It is among the most vile religious belief systems on the planet, right up there with Islam. It is entirely hypocritical, calling itself a religion of love and tolerance, but behaving as a religion of hate, bigotry and dogmatism.

In the past, Christianity has endorsed slavery, genocide, incest, infanticide, rape, the forced conversion of non-Christians, the murder of non-believers, and the execution of heretics.

Even to today Christianity is anti-science, anti-human rights, and anti-abortion. It endorses discrimination against homosexuals and trans-people and oppresses women.

As to its adherents, some are evil, some may not be. But the religion itself is evil to the core, its leadership especially so.
 
stanfr said:
Do you believe all christians are evil? There are only two acceptable answers.
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smartcooky said:
Actually, there are four

1. Yes
2. No
3. Don't know
4. Don't care

I am firmly in acbytesla's camp on Christianity. It is among the most vile religious belief systems on the planet, right up there with Islam. It is entirely hypocritical, calling itself a religion of love and tolerance, but behaving as a religion of hate, bigotry and dogmatism.

In the past, Christianity has endorsed slavery, genocide, incest, infanticide, rape, the forced conversion of non-Christians, the murder of non-believers, and the execution of heretics.

Even to today Christianity is anti-science, anti-human rights, and anti-abortion. It endorses discrimination against homosexuals and trans-people and oppresses women.

As to its adherents, some are evil, some may not be. But the religion itself is evil to the core, its leadership especially so.
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Yeah Leumas was right. stanfr's post is a false dichotomy.

Me, I'm surrounded by good people that identify themselves as Christians. They think the religion is about loving thy neighbor, forgiveness and a unshakable belief in the future. My two best friends on the planet are both Catholics. Both are pro-choice, both are progressives, both have fully accepted family members that are gay.

Of course neither of them hardly have a clue what it says in their Bible.
 
stanfr said:
So how do you determine whether "the person is good or bad" then? You implicitly suggest that one can, but then you weasel out of it by saying their actions are evil but they may not be.
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If he is a theist and can wriggle and wring his religion to justify doing good deeds despite being an adherent of his religion.


stanfr said:
...
--do you believe that "some" Christians can be good?
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Here is a wonderful example of a very good christian... and it is DESPITE his religion...
  • "Religion is an insult to human dignity. With or without it you would have good people doing good things and evil people doing evil things. But for good people to do evil things, that takes religion." ― Steven Weinberg
 
smartcooky said:
Actually, there are four

1. Yes
2. No
3. Don't know
4. Don't care

I am firmly in acbytesla's camp on Christianity. It is among the most vile religious belief systems on the planet, right up there with Islam. It is entirely hypocritical, calling itself a religion of love and tolerance, but behaving as a religion of hate, bigotry and dogmatism.

In the past, Christianity has endorsed slavery, genocide, incest, infanticide, rape, the forced conversion of non-Christians, the murder of non-believers, and the execution of heretics.

Even to today Christianity is anti-science, anti-human rights, and anti-abortion. It endorses discrimination against homosexuals and trans-people and oppresses women.

As to its adherents, some are evil, some may not be. But the religion itself is evil to the core, its leadership especially so.
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:bigclap

 
acbytesla said:
Great cartoon.
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It is very apt of all those christians always complaining they are persecuted while doing the persecution.

ETA: read the writing on the back of the guy with the mallet... and on the cross.

 
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acbytesla said:
Yeah Leumas was right. stanfr's post is a false dichotomy.

Me, I'm surrounded by good people that identify themselves as Christians. They think the religion is about loving thy neighbor, forgiveness and a unshakable belief in the future. My two best friends on the planet are both Catholics. Both are pro-choice, both are progressives, both have fully accepted family members that are gay.

Of course neither of them hardly have a clue what it says in their Bible.
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acbytesla said:
The problem is it is hard to influence people that way. I'm a salesman. Years selling high end IT equipment. The fastest way to alienate a prospect is to tell them they are wrong. They dig in harder.
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While we are being nice and trying to sell them reason on internet forums... they bought all the politicians and "judges" they could buy as well as the internet and now have turned the country into a theocracy and already long ago the world into a hell hole.

​
 
Leumas said:
While we are being nice and trying to sell them reason on internet forums... they bought all the politicians and "judges" they could buy as well as the internet and now have turned the country into a theocracy and already long ago the world into a hell hole.

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Dennett is making my point. You're not going to sway the hard core Christians. They will die with their beliefs. Despite the Christian fascists, religion is on its way out. Every generation is seeing fewer and fewer adherents.

I'm worried about what happens to the country over the next ten years, but I don’t think this lasts for more than a generation or two.
 
acbytesla said:
Dennett is making my point. You're not going to sway the hard core Christians. They will die with their beliefs. Despite the Christian fascists, religion is on its way out. Every generation is seeing fewer and fewer adherents.

I'm worried about what happens to the country over the next ten years, but I don’t think this lasts for more than a generation or two.
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The agents of sabotage pausing as "judges" in ALLLLL the supreme courts of the states and in lower federal courts as well as of course SCOTUS are going to continue the sabotage of America for the next 40 years at least if not more... and their sabotage may pave the way for an easier way to maintain that for even longer.

 
smartcooky said:
Actually, there are four

1. Yes
2. No
3. Don't know
4. Don't care
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Fine, I mentioned '3' already, and 4 is irrelevant to anyone posting in this thread. The OP won't respond with any of those four.

I am firmly in acbytesla's camp on Christianity. It is among the most vile religious belief systems on the planet, right up there with Islam. It is entirely hypocritical, calling itself a religion of love and tolerance, but behaving as a religion of hate, bigotry and dogmatism.

In the past, Christianity has endorsed slavery, genocide, incest, infanticide, rape, the forced conversion of non-Christians, the murder of non-believers, and the execution of heretics.

Even to today Christianity is anti-science, anti-human rights, and anti-abortion. It endorses discrimination against homosexuals and trans-people and oppresses women.

As to its adherents, some are evil, some may not be. But the religion itself is evil to the core, its leadership especially so.
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I would not quibble with most of that, except I disagree to the extent it is 'evil to the core'--that would require a deep delve into the teachings of Christ (per NT) and that is pretty far off topic. You are referring to the *actions* of christians and not the core tenets of the faith, the ones I learned as a kid. They were based on fairy tales, but they are most certainly not "evil" If you can demonstrate that unconditional love is somehow evil, I might be convinced.
 
acbytesla said:
Yeah Leumas was right. stanfr's post is a false dichotomy.

Me, I'm surrounded by good people that identify themselves as Christians. They think the religion is about loving thy neighbor, forgiveness and a unshakable belief in the future. My two best friends on the planet are both Catholics. Both are pro-choice, both are progressives, both have fully accepted family members that are gay.

Of course neither of them hardly have a clue what it says in their Bible.
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LOL...yeah I'm sure like Leumas you believe that Jesus was pure evil cause he withered a fig tree. Been there, heard that crap.
 
Leumas said:
If he is a theist and can wriggle and wring his religion to justify doing good deeds despite being an adherent of his religion.




Here is a wonderful example of a very good christian... and it is DESPITE his religion...
  • "Religion is an insult to human dignity. With or without it you would have good people doing good things and evil people doing evil things. But for good people to do evil things, that takes religion." ― Steven Weinberg
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You are getting there, Leumas! Good job you have taken the first step in that 12 step program. You tacitly answered "Yes" to my question, and for that, I commend you--a small step but a step forward nevertheless.
 
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