Cont: Today's Mass Shooting (2)

[Warp12]

This just smashed the nail 100% square on the head and belted it home with a single blow.... but you will never get the Bogatives and the Warp12s of this world to agree, because it doesn't fit their chosen agenda.

Nobody is saying that spree shootings and other mass shootings are exactly the same, and have the same solutions (well, some are saying that gun control is the answer to both). What is loudly being said is that a hugely disproportionate amount of focus is being placed on a statistically insignificant number of shootings.

Why is that, I wonder? What kind of "agenda" might some have?

 

[jimbob]

In Ricky Gervais' recent stand-up special SuperNature, he asks, "What makes us? Is it our genetics or the environment? The old nature versus nurture argument. The psychologist Piaget was once asked, 'What’s more important for the intellect of a person? Nature or nurture?' And he replied, 'What’s more important for the area of a field?' Length or width?? All right, if you don’t know the answer, just ******* say... [audience laughs]"


There was an interesting post by W.D. Clinger in another thread comparing the U.S. Virgin Islands to the British Virgin Islands. As he notes, however, these are very small samples.

ETA: With respect to gun violence, I don't think the factors are race and poverty. More likely, they're tied up with poverty/drugs/organized crime/gun availability, where many of these things feed on each other.

I disagree with the ETA

Poverty will have a huge effect, also, in communities with a justified distrust of official authorities, unofficial authorities (gangs) will thrive. See the terrorists and their violent assertion of social norms in Northern Ireland for an example.


There is nothing that cannot be explained by poverty and the effects of racial discrimination against blacks, both historic and ongoing.

 

[angrysoba]

Nobody is saying that spree shootings and other mass shootings are exactly the same, and have the same solutions (well, some are saying that gun control is the answer to both). What is loudly being said is that a hugely disproportionate amount of focus is being placed on a statistically insignificant number of shootings.

Why is that, I wonder? What kind of "agenda" might some have?

Solutions please!

 

[Warp12]

Nobody is saying that spree shootings and other mass shootings are exactly the same, and have the same solutions (well, some are saying that gun control is the answer to both). What is loudly being said is that a hugely disproportionate amount of focus is being placed on a statistically insignificant number of shootings.

Why is that, I wonder? What kind of "agenda" might some have?

Solutions please!

This is like if someone points out that world hunger is a more significant issue than someone's pizza delivery being late. In an attempt to invalidate the position, you demand a plan to end world hunger.

 

[smartcooky]

Nobody is saying that spree shootings and other mass shootings are exactly the same, and have the same solutions (well, some are saying that gun control is the answer to both). What is loudly being said is that a hugely disproportionate amount of focus is being placed on a statistically insignificant number of shootings.

But not a statistically insignificant number of victims!!

In gang and criminal related shootings, the victims are mostly other criminals and gang members, usually less than a half dozen That isn't to say there aren't innocent bystanders, but they are not the targets are they are rarely involved.

However, in spree and rampage shootings, the innocent bystanders such as shoppers, worshippers and school children ARE THE TARGETS, and as a result, the numbers are usually high. For me this is the big difference!

Year|Location|Injured|Shot/Killed
2017|Las Vegas|867|60+
2016|Orlando Night Club|58|49
2007|Virginia Tech|49|32
2012|Sandy Hook|2|26
2017|Sutherland Springs|22|26
2019|El Paso Walmart|23|23|
2022|Uvalde|18|21
2018|Parkland|17|17

...and there are dozens more like this.

Do we ever see these numbers of innocent bystander victims in the types of shootings that you and your pal Bogative want to draw attention to? I mean, when was the last time that a gangland shoot-out resulted in 20 or 30 innocent bystanders being shot and killed? In the last 10 years, 1152 people have been injured in spree shootings, and 326 people have been killed. Are the numbers of innocent bystanders killed in criminal/gang shootings anywhere near those numbers? I'd be shocked of it was more than a couple of dozen over that entire time.

ETA: While on the subject of criminals and gangs, I'm not just talking about black gangs either (although Bogative is almost exclusively). There are also Latino gangs, The Mafia (white), Irish gangs (white), Russian mafia (white), Serbian Mafia (white) and dozens of others, many of them are white, Asian, and Hispanic. The solutions for them have little in common with the solutions for the kinds of spree shooters I have listed above. Gun control measures will have little effect on gangs, who almost never use legally obtained guns to commit their crimes.

IMO, debating spree/rampage killings and criminal/gang shootings in the same thread is like discussing car accidents and aircraft crashes in the same thread - they are different problems, they happen for different reasons and they have different solutions

 

[Warp12]

...and there are dozens more like this. Do we ever see these numbers of innocent bystander victims in the types of shootings that you and your pal Bogative want to draw attention to?

Certainly if we add up the number of killed and injured in your "run-of-the-mill" mass shootings, it will dwarf the figures you present. It is not even comparable, statistically. These shootings do not typically take place at gang warfare conventions, you know.

It seems that you are once again arbitrarily assigning a value to an individual human life, based upon some murky determination of worthiness to live.

 

[angrysoba]

This is like if someone points out that world hunger is a more significant issue than someone's pizza delivery being late. In an attempt to invalidate the position, you demand a plan to end world hunger.

What?!

You are trying to have this both ways. On the one hand you are arguing that the shootings by black people are the same thing as school and workplace shootings and then when asked for your solution you say the problems are different.

Which is it? If it is different then you and Bogative and Thermal are basically derailing the thread.

Either way, the three of you are using a lot of energy to prevent people discussing solutions and being coy about the point of fixating on black people. Why is this?

 

[Warp12]

You are trying to have this both ways. On the one hand you are arguing that the shootings by black people are the same thing as school and workplace shootings and then when asked for your solution you say the problems are different.

Which is it? If it is different then you and Bogative and Thermal are basically derailing the thread.

I am not arguing that they are the same, at all. I am arguing, as stated:

Nobody is saying that spree shootings and other mass shootings are exactly the same, and have the same solutions (well, some are saying that gun control is the answer to both). What is loudly being said is that a hugely disproportionate amount of focus is being placed on a statistically insignificant number of shootings.

The only possible "derail", imo, is when some complain and try to suppress the facts. Someone can easily start a different thread about the very narrowly focused, and statistically insignificant, occurrences of "spree" shootings.

 

[Cain]

I disagree with the ETA

Poverty will have a huge effect,

I don't know about a "huge" effect, but I agree. The intended clarification is that I don't think of length and width as race and poverty, but other factors and poverty (the trouble is many of those other factors can be a cause and effect of poverty).

in communities with a justified distrust of official authorities, unofficial authorities (gangs) will thrive. See the terrorists and their violent assertion of social norms in Northern Ireland for an example.

There is nothing that cannot be explained by poverty and the effects of racial discrimination against blacks, both historic and ongoing.

This appears headed toward dreaded causal monism when there are a lot of complicating variables. In the case of terrorism, their ranks are often drawn from households of relative wealth and privilege, but by people who see themselves as part of a traditionally oppressed group.

 

[smartcooky]

I am not arguing that they are the same, at all. I am arguing, as stated:




The only possible "derail", imo, is when some complain and try to suppress the facts. Someone can easily start a different thread about the very narrowly focused, and statistically significant, occurrences numbers of "spree" shooting victims

FTFY

And no, this thread was created as a place to discuss the ever growing number of spree/rampage killings. Bogative hijacked it for his personal agenda.

 

[Warp12]

FTFY

And no, this thread was created as a place to discuss the ever growing number of spree/rampage killings. Bogative hijacked it for his personal agenda.

Well, nobody is forcing anyone to start a new thread. But it would seem to make sense if you want to focus only on "spree/rampage" shootings. This thread is titled "Today's Mass Shooting". And what Bogative is reporting fits that much better, imo.

And it should be this way, imo. The types of shootings that Bogative reports are tremendously more frequent, and of much greater statistical significance in injury and deaths. Personally though, I am happy with them all in one place. It gives a sense of relative scale.

 

[Dr.Sid]

There is a point though. School shootings are terrifying. But numerically insignificant. Even all spree shootings combined.
It's mostly point because America is doing nothing with the more common shootings .. so why would they do anything with these ones ..

 

[angrysoba]

I am not arguing that they are the same, at all. I am arguing, as stated:




The only possible "derail", imo, is when some complain and try to suppress the facts. Someone can easily start a different thread about the very narrowly focused, and statistically insignificant, occurrences of "spree" shootings.

Then your pizza/work hunger analogy is grotesque and misleading. So let’s try this again.

If we are not talking about different things but you and Bogative and Thermal are just trying to give a more complete picture of the problem, as you claim, then what is the solution?

Maybe it won’t be just one thing, but maybe by having a better idea of the problem, as you claim, you can give a range of solutions. So what are they?

 

[Warp12]

Maybe it won’t be just one thing, but maybe by having a better idea of the problem, as you claim, you can give a range of solutions. So what are they?

This is why we needed the late pizza/world hunger analogy. I don't need to single-handedly solve the problem, and provide everyone with a "range of solutions". The fact that I am willing to acknowledge it and shine a light on it is a step in the right direction. Some people can't even bring themselves to do that.

I've already mentioned my thoughts on gun control. And I have already stated that I don't know how to solve the problem on other levels...like the ones that specifically make blacks so far overrepresented in these shootings. Some have mentioned poverty is a driving force, so I suspect that is a major area to explore. And as I have mentioned, there seems to be a cultural aspect where such urban violence is glorified. These problems seem complex, to me.

 

[angrysoba]

This is why we needed the late pizza/world hunger analogy. I don't need to single-handedly solve the problem, and provide everyone with a "range of solutions". The fact that I am willing to acknowledge it and shine a light on it is a step in the right direction. Some people can't even bring themselves to do that.
I've already mentioned my thoughts on gun control. And I have already stated that I don't know how to solve the problem on other levels...like the ones that specifically make blacks so far overrepresented in these shootings. Some have mentioned poverty is a driving force, so I suspect that is a major area to explore. And as I have mentioned, there seems to be a cultural aspect where such urban violence is glorified. These problems seem complex, to me.

Shorter Warp12: The real problem is the blacks. This is like a world-hunger level problem. A school full of kids getting shot up? Meh, that's like your pizza being late. Not really a problem at all. I have no solution to this problem (the blacks), so I will leave it to others to draw their own conclusions.

 

[Warp12]

Shorter Warp12: The real problem is the blacks. This is like a world-hunger level problem. A school full of kids getting shot up? Meh, that's like your pizza being late. Not really a problem at all. I have no solution to this problem (the blacks), so I will leave it to others to draw their own conclusions.

We had to go though this whole exercise for the above? Not only is the summation incorrect, but if I am offering "no solution", you are offering up even less. I have at least presented three potential topics of discussion: gun control, poverty, and a culture that seems to glorify urban violence. Obviously, gun control issues themselves do not explain why there is such a disproportionate number of black-involved mass shootings.

 

[Skeptic Ginger]

Nobody is saying that spree shootings and other mass shootings are exactly the same, and have the same solutions (well, some are saying that gun control is the answer to both). What is loudly being said is that a hugely disproportionate amount of focus is being placed on a statistically insignificant number of shootings.

Why is that, I wonder? What kind of "agenda" might some have?

And while you continue on your whataboutism binge, you continue to avoid the question, what do you propose as a solution?

I propose banning assault weapons and large ammo magazines. I propose raising the age one can buy a gun to 21, and increase background checks add a 3 day waiting/cooling off period before one can buy a gun. Close all the gun show loopholes in these laws.

Your turn.

 

[Skeptic Ginger]

This is like if someone points out that world hunger is a more significant issue than someone's pizza delivery being late. In an attempt to invalidate the position, you demand a plan to end world hunger.

So you just want us to recognize the wider gun/murder/suicide problem but not do anything about it?

OK. Moving on, that 3 day waiting period will address rash killings like suicides and some domestic violence murders.

We should add mandatory safe gun storage or trigger locks to prevent kids from accidentally killing each other.

 

[angrysoba]

We had to go though this whole exercise for the above? Not only is the summation incorrect, but if I am offering "no solution", you are offering up even less. I have at least presented three potential topics of discussion: gun control, poverty, and a culture that seems to glorify urban violence. Obviously, gun control issues themselves do not explain why there is such a disproportionate number of black-involved mass shootings.

Right, and just because gun control won't solve everything, doesn't mean it won't solve anything.

 

[Skeptic Ginger]

I am not arguing that they are the same, at all. I am arguing, as stated:

The only possible "derail", imo, is when some complain and try to suppress the facts. Someone can easily start a different thread about the very narrowly focused, and statistically insignificant, occurrences of "spree" shootings.

Looks at thread title: "Today's Mass Shooting"