Cont: Today's Mass Shooting (2)

[Skeptic Ginger]

Which is an outrage, though I might argue that the CDC is not the proper agecny to do this.

Why?

They have the tools/methods to address anything that kills or injures any group of people in the US.

I believe someone said the FBI was better suited. Why not both? The FBI might be better suited to address some issues like guns and setting. But the CDC is better suited to address family dysfunction and the shooters' mental illness and/or state of mind.

Though I do think the CDC could easily address the guns and setting. The setting is a big issue in public health and collecting data on where and which guns were used leads to obvious answers.

 

[Bob001]

There is a lot of heartbreak and sorrow over the mass shootings. But what about all the other ones? Wikipedia list 22 so far this year;

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_school_shootings_in_the_United_States

They get pretty much ignored, which is a huge part of the problem. Guns and shootings in schools are normalised.

Not all shootings are the same just because the happen around a school. Many of the incidents on your list are what we regrettably would characterize as ordinary crimes: one or two victims, some kind of problem between criminal and victim, etc. Columbine, Sandy Hook, Virginia Tech, Uvalde etc., like Buffalo, Aurora, etc., are pre-meditated murders with high-capacity weapons of as many strangers as the killer can find.

This might be a more relevant list.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mass_shootings_in_the_United_States

 

[Skeptic Ginger]

I know this thread has moved on. But I agree with this post completely.

I even heard a conservative attorney say the exact same thing. Right before he pivoted to some weird point that we can not trust the democrats to oversee such restrictions so we can’t have them. It was such a spin I almost wrecked my truck. But that’s talk radio.

I haven't heard anyone realistically proposing a ban on all guns.

But there are good reasons to ban some of these assault weapons. And someone really needs to point out the 2nd Amendment doesn't say any and all types of weapons.

 

[Skeptic Ginger]

There should be both a ban on assault/assault type weapons AND more widespread restrictions on age of purchase, training and licensing requirements, checks/waiting periods, etc.

They are not mutually exclusive.

Exactly.

I would like to see more Democrats adopt the talking point I highlighted above: The 2nd Amendment doesn't say any and everything that can spit out a bullet.

 

[Bob001]

Thanks (and to others who answered).

Next question (based on my police training) was that when seeking cover, we need to be behind something that bullets cannot penetrate. The firearms that the shooter had, were they of sufficient power that bullets would go through the classroom walls and door?

It is also hard to see how so many cops could be in a corridor and cover the classrooms, with risk of shooting each other.

The walls were apparently concrete block, a standard building material for schools. He was reportedly shooting through the doors. Cops wouldn't have been able to wait in the hall if bullets were flying through the walls.

 

[Bob001]

Here's a question, to which I have heard multiple conflicting answers: Can teachers lock their classroom doors from inside? In Uvalde, cops apparently waited until they could find a janitor with a key to the classroom door, which the shooter had locked. But in other cases teachers have said they need to step outside their classroom to lock the door with a key. Devices are marketed for blocking or jamming school doors from inside, some of which violate codes. It seems like one basic step would be to install deadbolts on every classroom door, even if they require a teacher-controlled key to operate.Teachers could lock their own classrooms at the first sign of trouble.

Here's somebody marketing a special lock for that purpose and reviewing devices that are illegal under fire codes.
https://umbrellatech.co/classroom-door-lockdown-devices/

 

[crescent]

Here's a question, to which I have heard multiple conflicting answers: Can teachers lock their classroom doors from inside? In Uvalde, cops apparently waited until they could find a janitor with a key to the classroom door, which the shooter had locked. But in other cases teachers have said they need to step outside their classroom to lock the door with a key. Devices are marketed for blocking or jamming school doors from inside, some of which violate codes. It seems like one basic step would be to install deadbolts on every classroom door, even if they require a teacher-controlled key to operate.Teachers could lock their own classrooms at the first sign of trouble.

Since Columbine nearly all schools have doors that can lock from inside the classroom. The limitation is that many of them require a key to do so. Some have electronic locks that can be triggered from the central office or even remotely by police dispatch in the event of a lockdown.

Sandy Hook had them. The schools principle slowed down the shooter enough for all teachers to lock the doors - all but a substitute teacher who had not been issued the key. That was where nearly all the Sandy Hook fatalities were.

Stoneman Douglas had locked schoolroom doors. The shooter there pulled the fire alarm before he started shooting, drawing some kids into the hall where he killed them. He shot others by firing through the doors, they had little windows that he could see through to target them. Some of the classrooms had designated areas not visible from the door windows and had plans to shelter there in case of an active shooter, but then put furniture there, making that plan unfollowable once something actually happened.

But yes - locking doors from inside the classroom is standard. In my kid's schooling in three towns over two states from kindergarten to high school, all classrooms in all schools lock from the inside.

 

[Checkmite]

For all of Republican concern about mental health services, Texas has not expanded Medicaid.

And the governor cut mental health spending just last month, allegedly.

But yes this is not the elephant in the room, but rather in the backyard, clearly visible from the windows. Conservatives right now are willing to insistently latch on to, quite literally (and that's literally-literally), any possible "explanation" and "solution" for school shootings that doesn't involve restricting guns; but even this much is theatrics. They don't actually believe in any of their own proposed non-gun-related solutions either and given enough time they will pointedly avoid walking the walk they're presently talking. They'll say "mental health" now, but continue to slash mental health-related budgets. They'll say "broken families" now, but they will continue to defund and dismantle the social safety net. They'll say "school security" now, and give half a dozen different ideas about doors, but they will refuse to raise the taxes necessary to buy and implement those things. They'll say "arm our brave teachers" now, and in three months it'll be back to "our teachers are groomers turning our kids trans with CRT indoctrination".

 

[Checkmite]

GOD HAS HEARD YOUR THOUGHTS AND PRAYERS AND HE THINKS THEY ARE ******* ********

SoMeTiMeS tHe AnSwEr iS nO

 

[smartcooky]

And the governor cut mental health spending just last month, allegedly.

But yes this is not the elephant in the room, but rather in the backyard, clearly visible from the windows. Conservatives right now are willing to insistently latch on to, quite literally (and that's literally-literally), any possible "explanation" and "solution" for school shootings that doesn't involve restricting guns; but even this much is theatrics. They don't actually believe in any of their own proposed non-gun-related solutions either and given enough time they will pointedly avoid walking the walk they're presently talking. They'll say "mental health" now, but continue to slash mental health-related budgets. They'll say "broken families" now, but they will continue to defund and dismantle the social safety net. They'll say "school security" now, and give half a dozen different ideas about doors, but they will refuse to raise the taxes necessary to buy and implement those things. They'll say "arm our brave teachers" now, and in three months it'll be back to "our teachers are groomers turning our kids trans with CRT indoctrination".

And of course you can add to all this what Trump did in March 2017 as one of his first acts in office... made it easier for people with mental health issues to buy guns.

https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-new...ng-obama-era-gun-checks-people-mental-n727221

 

[lionking]

Rather than strengthening locks at schools, how about eliminating semi-automatics, background checks and firearm registration? As I think the Atheist said, locks are not an issue in New Zealand (and Australia). Schools don’t need them.

 

[Stacyhs]

And the governor cut mental health spending just last month, allegedly.

But yes this is not the elephant in the room, but rather in the backyard, clearly visible from the windows. Conservatives right now are willing to insistently latch on to, quite literally (and that's literally-literally), any possible "explanation" and "solution" for school shootings that doesn't involve restricting guns; but even this much is theatrics. They don't actually believe in any of their own proposed non-gun-related solutions either and given enough time they will pointedly avoid walking the walk they're presently talking. They'll say "mental health" now, but continue to slash mental health-related budgets. They'll say "broken families" now, but they will continue to defund and dismantle the social safety net. They'll say "school security" now, and give half a dozen different ideas about doors, but they will refuse to raise the taxes necessary to buy and implement those things. They'll say "arm our brave teachers" now, and in three months it'll be back to "our teachers are groomers turning our kids trans with CRT indoctrination".

 

[Stacyhs]

Rather than strengthening locks at schools, how about eliminating semi-automatics, background checks and firearm registration? As I think the Atheist said, locks are not an issue in New Zealand (and Australia). Schools don’t need them.

I think you may want to rephrase the highlighted; it says the opposite of what I think you meant.


Still, why not do them both? It's a simple enough thing and crazies can still kill with things other than guns.

On May 19, a man in China stabbed to death 8 primary school children.

On April 28, 2021 a man stabbed two children dead and injured 16 in a kindergarten in southern China.


Two years ago a man in China stabbed 37 children and 2 adults in a school. Thankfully, no deaths.

 

[Stacyhs]

I just heard a woman at the NRA convention repeat this amazingly stupid yet favorite phrase: Guns don't kill people, people do. This is how badly they have to twist 'logic' to make excuses for the gun culture here.

 

[Thermal]

I think you may want to rephrase the highlighted; it says the opposite of what I think you meant.


Still, why not do them both? It's a simple enough thing and crazies can still kill with things other than guns.

On May 19, a man in China stabbed to death 8 primary school children.

On April 28, 2021 a man stabbed two children dead and injured 16 in a kindergarten in southern China.


Two years ago a man in China stabbed 37 children and 2 adults in a school. Thankfully, no deaths.

Yes, a stone cold nut can stab multiple people to death. But that takes some drive to do. Any sniveling little weakling can passively pull a trigger.

 

[JoeMorgue]

Here's one of the things we DO have to account for.

America does have a massive murder rate even if you take guns away.

If we get some kind of sane gun laws based someone is sooner or later going to go on a stabbing spree or drive a car into a crowd or something and you know, you just know the gun nuts are going to use that as "proof" that gun control doesn't do anything even if overall rates go down. You know they'll do it. You can probably already imagine the... well not arguments but the "LOL good thing he didn't have a gun hardy hardy har" trolling they will do.

This is America. You take away handguns (8029 murders), Firearms, Unspecified (4863 murders), Knives (1739 murders), Other weapons (983), Rifles (455), Clubs/Hammers (393), Shotguns (223), Narcotics (113), Fire (106), Asphyxiation (71), Strangulation (58), Poison (16), Drowning (5), and Explosives (4) we would still have 662 murders a year in America, which is still more murders than Japan, Spain, Italy, Australia, Sweden, Israel, the Netherlands, Finland, Greece, Scotland, Norway or many, many, many, many other countries have.

Americans beat each other to death with their bare hands at a murder rate greater than most countries.

We have both a gun problem AND a murder problem and the gun people WILL dishonestly try and argue that not solving the murder problem means we shouldn't try and solve the gun problem.

We need to go ahead and figure out how we are going to address that fallacious counter-argument now.


*2020 stats, last year I can find them broken down by weapon used

 

[arayder]

I thought I made that point in my post. I'm not familiar with guns. I don't own one. I don't like them. I have no idea what a "Bolt/lever/slide plugged to hold three rounds" even means or whether hunters use them. My point was that I recognize there are some legitimate reasons for gun ownership but none for, outside of (some) law enforcement/military, for owning a weapon like an assault/style rifle or any that can kill many and quickly.

Ah sorry.
Semi-automatic weapons tap gas pressure or recoil force generated during firing to 'cycle' the weapon, ejecting the used cartridge case, moving a fresh round into position and preparing the weapon to fire again when the trigger is pressed. Fully automatic weapons (your classic machine gun) continue firing while the trigger is pressed and ammunition remains available.

Manually cycled weapons (bolt, lever and slide are variations on this theme) require the firer to manually move part of the weapon to perform the firing cycle. . . . .

I have tried to make the case several times for simply limiting the size of magazines used in semi-auto rifles and pistols. While this restriction would not effect the ease of operating the weapon (i.e. no pump, lever or bolt to operate) it makes the weapon less deadly.

The NRA poo-poos this idea saying that it won't be effective since all the mass shooter would need to do is practice his mag changes. But I say that's their usual "It won't work" spiel. Mag changes under pressure are hard to do and the average mass shooter is, IMHO, a dip **** loser who has never practiced anything in his sad life. When the NRA makes its "It won't work" argument they show film of some competitive shooter who's been practicing mag changes for the last decade.

Most states allow hunting with AR-15s. The caliber has to be big enough to humanely bring down the game you are hunting. In every state in know of you can't hunt deer with a .223 cartridge, the one used in most AR-15s. The states don't allow large cap mags to be used when hunting. This means you'll see a cameo covered AR-15 out in the field with a tiny five round mag in it. If the only way you can bring down game is by shooting 20 rounds into it you ain't no hunter.

If the fish and wildlife officers catch you with a high cap mag in the rifle or using a round too puny to humanely put the animal down you are in trouble.

So why not limit the mag size to 10 or 5?

This would spare the government the, IMHO, catastrophically dangerous approach of trying to confiscate rifles. I am telling ya'll going into the hills of eastern Kentucky to get Bubba's rifle is a prescription for disaster.

High cap mags could be bought back by the government. If Bubba doesn't want to be part of the buy back program he'll have to smash up his high cap mags (or at least hide them) 'cause if he goes out in public with the high cap mag he's liable get fined or arrested, depending on what Uncle Sam wants the penalty to be.

Edited by Agatha: 

Edited to remove disguised swear word. In the public sections (of which SI&CE is one) do not disguise swear words by altering the spelling or adding, replacing or removing characters. Type all swear words out in full and allow the autocensor to work if they are on the list.

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Dope Clock II: It's been 348 days since Bobby Menard announced plans to create "Artists Valley". So far all he has done is lie through his teeth.

 

[Ranb]

Washington State banned bump stocks and said they would buy them back. I read that they bought back 1000 of them before running out of funds.

Has the US federal government or any other state government ever bought back a gun or gun accessory that was banned?

 

[Cain]

For all of Republican concern about mental health services, Texas has not expanded Medicaid.

I thought the whole point of having guns was to prevent this type of socialism. Turns out guns are an end in themselves. Guns are not a false god; they're the one true God. Any self-respecting God requires an offering.

 

[Ranb]

High cap mags could be bought back by the government. If Bubba doesn't want to be part of the buy back program he'll have to smash up his high cap mags (or at least hide them) 'cause if he goes out in public with the high cap mag he's liable get fined or arrested, depending on what Uncle Sam wants the penalty to be.

I doubt anyone would ever surrender or destroy their standard capacity (30 rounds) AR-15 mags. They would hide them or block them off to 5 rounds or whatever the new restriction is.

Of course this just makes another way to run afoul of the law. In 1992 Hawaii's assault pistol ban also included magazines. They had to be ten rounds or less and not able to be "readily restored" to >10 rounds. When I lived in Hawaii, no one really defined what "readily restored" meant. I was told that the police said it was their job to enforce the law and the courts would make the proper interpretation when a person went to court over it.

A few years ago I inquired on a Hawaii gun forum if they ever got around to doing this. The short answer was no; no one had ever been arrested in Hawaii for an inadequately blocked magazine.

I blocked mine with a piece of metal riveted to the base plate. I later cut away the metal to restore the mag to the usual 20 rounds after I moved to WA.