Cont: Today's Mass Shooting (2)

[erlando]

That back door should have been locked. Entrances to schools should always have doors that can be opened from inside but not from outside.

"She shouldn't have been wearing that"

 

[The Great Zaganza]

And I'll be right there condemning the police if the investigation show that's what happened. But a lot of people in this thread were crapping all over the police almost immediately without knowing the facts.

neither did the Police, it seems, but that didn't stop them from quickly making claims to make them look good in the early reporting.
If a PD with a PR department gets to make premature claims, why don't we?
Shouldn't their standard be much higher than that demanded of members on an online forum?

 

[jimbob]

Usually i could accept this as a valid point, but that the cops just stood around after they got their own kids out argues something more is involved here.

WHAT?

 

[Nessie]

That is what concerns me. I understand the logic of waiting for a SWAT/HRT team to arrive before stroming the building, but that is not what seems to have happened here.

I understand the logic, in the UK, where the local police are unarmed and they wait for armed police to arrive.

I do not understand the logic when armed police wait for armed police to arrive.

Or do the local police not bother with any active shooter training and their guns are just to shoot unarmed people?

 

[catsmate]

... what restrictions are left to relax in Texas? Crew served weapons... artillery pieces

All are already legal, thought subject to the NFA.
However he did support uncontrolled, unskilled, carriage of handguns. Not to forget his veto (along with LTG Patrick) of 'Red Flag' laws proposed after the mass school shooting of 2018, allowing a court to order confiscation of weapons after a petition and measures to ensure secure storage of firearms.

 

[Nessie]

I am going to stand by my assertion that cops should not be allowing civilians to enter the site of a mass shooting during or immediately after the event.

I'm sure if she ran in and got shot, that would trigger its own outrage.

The tactics I was taught, as an unarmed UK response cop, were to establish where the armed person was and then set up a cordon so that people could be kept away from the shooter.

I also worked as an unarmed security guard in MA and I was given the same advice if I became aware of a shooting, which did happen in one place I worked. Thankfully, it was during a night shift and there were no public about and someone else had phoned the cops as I did, so very quickly cops were on the scene. The first thing they did was set up a cordon, so that no one could go past where the shooters were.

You are correct that the police's first duty would be to identify where the shooter is and to try and keep people away.

 

[jimbob]

English? Hell, Tain't mine neither.

Guns break. They get rust on them at an alarming rate. Useable heavily used guns from 30, 40 years ago are rare. Sure there are old 1911's and M1s. But they have been in safes and stored by people who aren't the problem.

---------
Dope Clock II: It's been 346 days since Bobby Menard announced plans to create "Artists Valley". So far all he has done is lie through his teeth.

Exactly.

The "half life" of illegal guns is a lot less than for legal guns. In another thread, years ago, I linked to a report on this.

I forgot my source. Sorry.

INSIDE STRAW PURCHASING: How Criminals Get Guns Illegally

[FONT=&quot]“Virtually every crime gun in the United States starts off as a legal firearm,” according to then-Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms (ATF) director Bradley Buckles in 2000. [/FONT][FONT=&quot]2 [/FONT][FONT=&quot]In a 1997 report, the ATF looked at how guns then “pass through the legitimate distribution system of federally licensed firearms dealers” before ending up in the hands of criminals. The ATF con- cluded, in part, that, “there is a large problem of diversion to the illegal market from licensed gun establishments.” [/FONT][FONT=&quot]3 [/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]When a gun is recovered in a crime, the ATF can use the serial number on the gun to trace back to where it first left the legal market - tracing from the first sale of the firearm by an importer or manufacturer, to the wholesaler or retailer, to the first retail purchaser. In some cases, that first retail purchaser is the link between the legal and illegal markets. [/FONT][FONT=&quot]4 [/FONT][FONT=&quot]Looking at trace information from 1998, the ATF found that “a small group of dealers accounts for a disproportionately large number of crime gun traces.” [/FONT][FONT=&quot]5 [/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]More than 85 percent of dealers in the U.S. had no crime guns traced to them at all in 1998, while about 1 percent of licensed firearm dealers accounted for 57 percent of traces that same year. [/FONT][FONT=&quot]6 [/FONT][FONT=&quot]The ATF also con- cluded that “sales volume alone cannot be said to account for the disproportionately large num- ber of traces associated with those dealers.” [/FONT][FONT=&quot]7 [/FONT]

I might as well cross post this, giving some more figures:

Straw purchases are important, and criminal guns tend to be newish...

The data in the following report suggests that making someone liable for their gun up to a legal transfer of ownership or five-years after they report it lost/stolen would affect a significant number of criminal guns.
Crime Gun Risk Factors: Buyer, Seller, Firearm, and Transaction Characteristics Associated with Gun Trafficking and Criminal Gun Use
Report to the National Institute of Justice, U.S. Department of Justice
By
Christopher S. Koper
(With Contributions by Mary Shelley)
2007 (PDF)

The full extent of straw purchasing cannot be determined from available data, 4 but it appears to be a fairly common supply mechanism for criminals and juveniles. A survey of juveniles incarcerated in four states, for instance, revealed that a third had asked someone, most commonly a family member or friend, to buy a gun for them at a retail outlet at some point in the past (Sheley and Wright, 1993:6). Another rough indicator is the share of crime guns that are new but that have changed hands at least once. To illustrate, approximately one quarter of guns confiscated by police are less than three years old, and most of these are recovered from persons other than the original buyers (Cook and Braga, 2001:294-295); this implies that many of these guns were diverted from the primary market via straw purchasing and other means.

Responsible gun owners who take adequate precautions should have little problem.

​

 

[catsmate]

WRT the popular notion of arming teachers a look over the history of US school shootings is not reassuring.

 

[catsmate]

Well yeah, but the BP running in guys hurts the local yokels more than any other element of the story.

I have a feeling the loser bitch stopped shooting because he ran out of ammo (he dropped a backpack with his extra mags before getting into the school). Sort of sounds like the Border Patrol guys finished it without taking fire? Speculation, of course.

I believe at least one CBP officer was shot.

 

[smartcooky]

2) It was standard school safety protocol in the schools I taught in for outside entrances to only be openable from the inside to help prevent exactly what happened in Uvalde: an unauthorized person entering through an unlocked
secondary door.

I can't speak for the US, but here, those kinds of doors look like this...

... they are heavy, very secure and can only be opened from the inside (by simply pushing against the crossbar).

They can also be configured to trigger the fire alarms if they are opened.

 

[catsmate]

I don't think stealth was a priority. The shooter was actively killing people, and was already aware the police were there.

If they believed there were still survivors in the classroom(s) that could be saved, actively drawing the shooter's attention away from those survivors and onto the shielded and armored tactical team seems like it would be a desirable thing. In its self-congratulatory tweet the agency explicitly claimed that they successfully "drew the attacker's attention".

There are specific breaching charges and lock-breaker shotgun rounds. This really shouldn't be a problem.

 

[catsmate]

I make it that school is about 75 miles from the border, so why did Border Patrol attend?

I believe they had a base there but I'm not entirely certain of this.

 

[catsmate]

An interesting comment since some folks the U.S. are calling for more guns.

In the U.S. the myth of the armed citizen who saves the day is bolstered by the times a school/church shooter is gunned down by an armed passerby or a volunteer guard at the 11 o'clock services.

It happens and it's a thing of wonder and praise.

That being so it makes me wonder how many shotguns, automatic rifles and pistols were sitting in gun safes in the blocks around Robb Elementary.

Just a thought.

"America would not exist without the heroism of the young adults who fought and died in our revolutionary army".

 

[catsmate]

CLearly that is a chaotic lawless place totally lacking in civilization.

It's in Redcar...

 

[Andy_Ross]

It could be done pretty easy, a microchip feed by induction from any magnetic Field and a Transmiter that Transmits to near by cell phones on wireless.

So get on with it

 

[Andy_Ross]

And you don't know anything about tactics in a hostage situation.
You are just out to "get" the cops.

It was laid down after Columbine. go in as quickly as possible.

A school shooting like this is not a 'hostage situation'

 

[angrysoba]

Rather than acknowledge that your extremely insulting "Ted Cruz" remark to me was unwarranted, you skim right over it. Then you ignore the point that locked secondary entry doors are a recommended, rational, and obvious safety procedure and that by leaving it unlocked, the shooter gained entry to the school.
By the way, the Uvalde SD already required that door to be locked:


https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-61600914


https://www.texastribune.org/2022/05/26/texas-uvalde-shooting-harden-schools/

In fact, he said, several times, on a few different news outlets, that the back doors were unlocked and that is how the shooter got in. Yes, he also said, in addition to that, that there should only be ONE door.



No doubt if you pointed this out to old Ted, he would say you are being pedantic and that OBVIOUSLY he means there should be fire doors that only open from inside. Of course, that doesn't take into account that kids should hardly be locked up inside a building all day. Don't they have recess? Don't they have PE outside?

Of course, Ted is blaming the teachers for having left the doors open and leaving doors open is a crazy thing to do because....

...because wait for it....

...the US is awash with guns that any old mental case (that's what they say) can get hold of them, legally, from the age of 18 (they even had court rulings that upheld 18-year olds rights to do that, and they can get AR-15s which, despite some claims, are not just any old guns like granpappy's old shotgun, but which made total irrepairable messes of their targets and which, guess what, the many, many maniac shooters just happen to choose for some bloody reason despite apparently making no difference.

But that's okay, because there are armed guards on the doors, except there are not, even though even in the same quote you sent me, the armed guards are supposed to patrol those doors.

Okay, look, the problem is guns. Sure, the teachers should have locked the door and the police should not have run away, but let us not get distracted with those things. The problem is the guns.

 

[Andy_Ross]

I am going to stand by my assertion that cops should not be allowing civilians to enter the site of a mass shooting during or immediately after the event.

I'm sure if she ran in and got shot, that would trigger its own outrage.

Can't have a lone, unarmed civilian making them look like cowards can we?

 

[angrysoba]

It was laid down after Columbine. go in as quickly as possible.

A school shooting like this is not a 'hostage situation'

Yeah, were there not shots being fired in the videos themselves? I find it hard to see how there can be a "hostage situtation" in that case.

 

[Andy_Ross]

Stacyhs (and Cruz): It was the door's fault!!!!!

It's convenient, someone can be blamed for not locking it and take the heat off the availability of guns.