Trans women are not women (Part 8)

[Meadmaker]

Top fifty as a freshman. 4 years of training seems to have paid off, good for her.

Thomas was always a great swimmer. That's the point. Transitioning wasn't some golden escalator to an elite level, she was always there.

I'm not sufficiently interested to do the research myself, but it would be interesting to see how many people who finished in fiftieth place as freshman swimmers went on to win NCAA championships.

I'm willing to bet the number is zero.

Except for Thomas, of course, but I think there's an asterisk on that particular entry.

 

[Meadmaker]

Take it up with Rolfe, that's where all this talk of "threat" came from, which you replied to. Somehow I think the discussion of the inherent danger of trans women and the inherent unfairness of trans women in sport aren't as separate in some people's minds as you seem to think. Almost as if there's some fuzzy, animus driven thinking going on.

My "squirrel" post was before Rolfe's "threat" post. Both of those posts were a response to your "crypto-male perverts" post, which was an unprompted change of subject.

I was talking about sports. I still am. I'm sure I'll go with the loop-de-loop eventually. The conversation goes in circles.


However, I appreciate you actually stating your belief that somehow being male isn't the source of Thomas' success. It's good to get that belief clearly stated. Of course,I disagree with it. I think those huge shoulders actually have something to do with it. There ain't a woman (or whatever) in the world with shoulders like that.

 

[Emily's Cat]

It's pretty clear the most intense animus is reserved for trans women. Trans men are very rarely the focus of these hate campaigns.

How do you square the accusation of "transphobia" with this phenomenon?

 

[Emily's Cat]

Next time I come across an article I'll post it for you.

Don't bother. ST won't read it, but will just out-of-hand dismiss it as being either an anecdote, or somehow a biased source, or right-wing fear-mongering.

ST doesn't accept anything that contradicts their beliefs.

 

[TurkeysGhost]

Don't bother. ST won't read it, but will just out-of-hand dismiss it as being either an anecdote, or somehow a biased source, or right-wing fear-mongering.

ST doesn't accept anything that contradicts their beliefs.

Well, if you don't cite anything I can just dismiss it entirely out of hand as made up nonsense, so I suppose that's a change of pace.

 

[Emily's Cat]

This seems to be Australia, not Canada.

The parents who lost custody claim that it was simply because they opposed medical transition. The courts found credible evidence that they were verbally abusing their child who was showing clear indicators of being a suicide risk. I suppose there's some people who would prefer parents have the right to bully their trans children into suicide, but that strikes me as an extremist position.



https://www.familylawincanberra.com.au/custody-of-transgender-child-lost-by-non-accepting-parents/

That's why I'm asking for the citation for this alleged Canada case, because I very much suspect it will show far worse behavior by the parents than is being claimed in these reductionist, second-hand accounts.

See? Dismissal. There will always be a rational for ST to dismiss anything that doesn't support their beliefs.

I'm betting that the "verbal abuse" in this case consists of the parents not using a newly selected name and pronoun for their child, but insisting on sticking with the name they gave them and the pronoun of their sex.

 

[TurkeysGhost]

My "squirrel" post was before Rolfe's "threat" post. Both of those posts were a response to your "crypto-male perverts" post, which was an unprompted change of subject.

I was talking about sports. I still am. I'm sure I'll go with the loop-de-loop eventually. The conversation goes in circles.


However, I appreciate you actually stating your belief that somehow being male isn't the source of Thomas' success. It's good to get that belief clearly stated. Of course,I disagree with it. I think those huge shoulders actually have something to do with it. There ain't a woman (or whatever) in the world with shoulders like that.

I think it's hard to know. Thomas was a very good athlete before transitioning.

Regardless of our disagreement, I think you would probably agree that citing her "400" rank, which occurred while she was taking HRT and still competing in the men's league, is either misinformed or disingenuous when compared to her freshman and sophomore year records.

 

[Emily's Cat]

Divorced parents having a disagreement about what medical care is best for their child and having it settled in family court is a far cry from "the state will take away your kid if you refuse to trans them" arguments being made.

Surely this isn't the case, I wouldn't want to accuse other members of deliberately slanting the truth to such an absurd extent. This can't be the case EC was referencing.

Just another "anecdote" that is "fearmongering" some "right wing talking points" by "bigots".

My goodness, dismissals are soooooo easy!

 

[Emily's Cat]

The Australian article does not specify what the verbal abuse was. You seem to be making a large assumption that it was simply misgendering.

You'll forgive me if I don't treat some one-sided hit piece in the NYPost as a reliable accounting of facts. It's suspiciously lacking in citations to verifiable facts. A direct link to a court opinion would be helpful, this piece seems to be written with only the father's account considered.

So much tap dancing, so much dismissal.

 

[TurkeysGhost]

Just another "anecdote" that is "fearmongering" some "right wing talking points" by "bigots".

My goodness, dismissals are soooooo easy!

Lol so this was the case you were referencing. No wonder you didn't cite it, you were straight up lying about the details.

 

[Rolfe]

I've never seen the erect penis part. (Meaning....I've never seen it written about in the case of Thomas. I've also never seen......I should stop digging.)

The point is that, to the best of my knowledge, that part is not true. The rest of your post, to the best of my knowledge, is true.

Of course, it might be that most media outlets chose not to print that part. That has been known to happen.

It may not be true. I only came across the reference recently. It's possible a journalist was spicing up the story. As if it needed spicing up.

 

[Emily's Cat]

Yes, I forget that collegiate swimming is an event that so many people in our society care deeply about. Surely this isn't some proxy for a broader culture war.

ETA: Thomas is graduating and is done swimming at the collegiate level. Surely there must be another punching bag waiting in the wings.

ST: That would never happen
Others: Here is a case where it did happen
ST: Well, it doesn't happen often enough, this doesn't count
Others: Here are more cases
ST: Anecdotes! Bigotry! Bias! Doesn't Count Doesn't Count Doesn't Count Doesn't Count Doesn't Count Doesn't Count Doesn't Count Doesn't Count


Others: This is an easily foreseeable outcome
ST: You're hysterical fearmongering right-wingers, just making things up
Others: Hey look, this easily foreseeable thing is beginning to happen
ST: You're blowing it out of proportion
Others: This easily foreseeable thing that is happening is having the easily foreseeable consequences that we pointed out
ST: Well, nobody cares about that, it's not a big deal
Others: The people facing the consequences care about it, it's a big deal to several people
ST: Anecdotes! Bigotry! Bias! Doesn't Count Doesn't Count Doesn't Count Doesn't Count Doesn't Count Doesn't Count Doesn't Count Doesn't Count

 

[Emily's Cat]

How can we tell if she is doing well because of an unfair advantage rather than just being a superb athlete? She was quite good before transitioning, she is quite good now.

JFC. MALE PHYSIOLOGY

This is not a mystery. Please stop playing stupid games.

 

[Ziggurat]

I'm willing to concede that divorced parents with radically different ideas on what is best for their child's health is a difficult problem.

Yes, it is.

But that doesn't actually answer my question.

 

[Emily's Cat]

Yes, so is every other senior who wasn't good enough to qualify. It must be heartbreaking to come so close and not quite make the cut, but such is the nature of intense competition that you just got done telling me is so important. Coming 17th for a 16 slot cut-off seems uniquely difficult to handle.

Coming in 17th for a 16-slot cut off in a FEMALE sport, where one of the 16 was MALE is a big ******* deal.

You pretending like you can't even remotely understand the problem is disingenuous.

 

[Emily's Cat]

Heartless denial of reality.

I observe that it's a heartless denial of FEMALE reality. ST seems to grok reality in many other cases, where the subjects happen to have been born with a penis.

 

[TurkeysGhost]

Yes, it is.

But that doesn't actually answer my question.

I think I've lost the thread, care to rephrase your question anew?

 

[Emily's Cat]

Gonna need a study. I volunteer for the vitamins and sleep group. We can't rule out a well rounded breakfast as a possible factor either.

This is willful denial on your part. The discrepancy in physical ability between males and females is EXTREMELY well documented. You pretending it doesn't exist is not a good argument.

Mostly, you sound like you're preaching a flat earth.

 

[TurkeysGhost]

This is willful denial on your part. The discrepancy in physical ability between males and females is EXTREMELY well documented. You pretending it doesn't exist is not a good argument.

Mostly, you sound like you're preaching a flat earth.

Still waiting on that link.

 

[Emily's Cat]

Take it up with Rolfe, that's where all this talk of "threat" came from, which you replied to. Somehow I think the discussion of the inherent danger of trans women and the inherent unfairness of trans women in sport aren't as separate in some people's minds as you seem to think. Almost as if there's some fuzzy, animus driven thinking going on.

MALES.

JFC, this switching out words crap is inane.

It's the inherent danger of MALES to FEMALES and the inherent unfairness of MALES in FEMALE sports.

FFS, this is basic elementary school stuff. Do you seriously think that if you keep swapping out words, nobody will notice? Do you think what you're doing is clever or sly or subtle? It's not. It's the tactics of a second-grader.