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Trans women are not women (Part 8)

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SuburbanTurkey said:
Doesn't support the claim that transwomen are really crypto-male perverts invading women's spaces.
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SQUIRREL!


I think Rolfe must have been encroaching on a comfort zone, there. We've seen it before. Quick, change the subject so that it's possible to avoid actually looking at the issue that might cause you to open your mind.

While we have discussed "crypto male perverts invading women's spaces" in this very long thread, that wasn't what we were talking about.

You comments about "hate campaigns" in this exchange was related to the different responses to Lia Thomas versus Iszac Henig. Two trans people. Same event. Wildly different reactions by fans and observers. Ask yourself why that is. And I truly mean "ask yourself". Actually examine it. Think about it. Your instinct is to attribute it to anti-trans hatred, but that's just a knee jerk reaction on your part.

Actually think about it and see what other explanations could possibly exist. If you are tempted to change the subject, as you did in the response quoted above, that's a sign that your mind is resisting the direction that your thoughts are taking you.
 
Meadmaker said:
SQUIRREL!


I think Rolfe must have been encroaching on a comfort zone, there. We've seen it before. Quick, change the subject so that it's possible to avoid actually looking at the issue that might cause you to open your mind.

While we have discussed "crypto male perverts invading women's spaces" in this very long thread, that wasn't what we were talking about.

You comments about "hate campaigns" in this exchange was related to the different responses to Lia Thomas versus Iszac Henig. Two trans people. Same event. Wildly different reactions by fans and observers. Ask yourself why that is. And I truly mean "ask yourself". Actually examine it. Think about it. Your instinct is to attribute it to anti-trans hatred, but that's just a knee jerk reaction on your part.

Actually think about it and see what other explanations could possibly exist. If you are tempted to change the subject, as you did in the response quoted above, that's a sign that your mind is resisting the direction that your thoughts are taking you.
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I dunno, once we've reached the "the trans swimmer is swimming slow on purpose" levels of crankery I think any pretense of a reasonable conversation is long gone.

I suppose you have to either gin up crank theories or accept that Thomas didn't have as extreme and overwhelming competitive advantages as claimed.
 
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SuburbanTurkey said:
Doesn't support the claim that transwomen are really crypto-male perverts invading women's spaces.
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It is completely neutral on that point.

The point you are missing is that when women delude themselves that they are male and can enter male single-sex spaces, they are not perceived as a threat. (A joke, maybe.) They are not a violent or a sexual threat to the men there. The men may still want rid of them because the presence of females is an embarrassment, or an affront to modesty, or simply an invasion of a space where they only expect the company of other men. But they are not a threat. They are physically smaller, and even the androgenised ones are no match for the average man in either strength or potential for aggression. They are not going to walz into any athletic competitions and start robbing the hard-working boys of their places in the team or their medals.

Thus it appears that men, who are the ones in a position to be diadvantaged by the presence of transmen in their spaces, aren't nearly as concerned about them as women are about transwomen. Yes, I've heard gay men expressing annoyance and exasperation when transmen show up to gay sex clubs and expect them to want to have sex with their "front holes" (or even elsewhere). But they generally simply tell them to bugger off. Probably literally. They make them knwn they aren't welcome, and they either hang around or they go away, but they aren't a threat. There are no reports of transmen aggressively taking over gay male spaces and dating apps by sheer force of numbers then shaming the men with cries of "transphobia" and "cotton ceiling" when they protest they're only interested in male bodies.

In contrast, as you are observing, transwomen are a very real and present threat to women and to women's spaces. They're large, they're strong, they're aggressive, and they're massively entitled. They also come equipped for rape, and women are aware of that. They're also in a position to sweep the board in most women's athletics events.

Women are not threatened by transmen. The ones who remain in women's spaces are fine, they're entitled. The ones who trot off to try to enter men's spaces are not our probem, they're the men's problem, and the men so far aren't making an enormous fuss about them.

Does this explain for you why women are pretty riled up about transwomen but generally don't worry much (if at all) about transmen?
 
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SuburbanTurkey said:
I dunno, once we've reached the "the trans swimmer is swimming slow on purpose" levels of crankery I think any pretense of a reasonable conversation is long gone.

I suppose you have to either gin up crank theories or accept that Thomas didn't have as extreme and overwhelming competitive advantages as claimed.
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You can actually SEE Thomas swimming without using his legs. After his initial forays when he won by such a margin he could practically have been showered and changed before the first woman finished, he realised this was actually embarrassing and toned it down. The current ploy appears to be to swim with his arms only while not kicking with his legs. You can see it.

You still have to face the fact that someone who was ranked in the 400s as a man is ranked at champion level in the women's events.
 
Rolfe said:
You still have to face the fact that someone who was ranked in the 400s as a man is ranked at champion level in the women's events.
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It's useful to point out that Lia's last season in the men's league she was taking hormone therapy, which resulted in a drop in strength and a corresponding drop in ranking like you point out.

Lia's freshman and sophomore years had her competing extremely highly in the men's leagues. Pointing out her low ranking in her final year in the men's leagues, while she was taking performance lowering hormone therapy, elides how competitive Thomas was prior to starting transition. Thomas was in the top 50 in some events and was on track to being a NCAA men's champion contender had she not transitioned.

The claim that she was a mediocre swimmer before transitioning is simply untrue.
 
In my view of this situation, one of the major psychological elements in William Thomas deciding to transition was his relatively mediocre performance in the pool. He has an older brother, Wes, whse performance in the men's events was pretty starry in his time at the same university. You don't have to be Freud or Jung to see the connection.
 
Ziggurat said:
And? How does that make any of this OK? How is this still not deeply unfair competition?
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How can we tell if she is doing well because of an unfair advantage rather than just being a superb athlete? She was quite good before transitioning, she is quite good now.
 
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Rolfe said:
In my view of this situation, one of the major psychological elements in William Thomas deciding to transition was his relatively mediocre performance in the pool. He has an older brother, Wes, whse performance in the men's events was pretty starry in his time at the same university. You don't have to be Freud or Jung to see the connection.
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As a freshman, Thomas set a time of 8 minutes and 57.55 seconds in the 1,000-yard freestyle, the 6th-fastest men's time in the country. Her times in the 500-yard freestyle and the 1,650-yard freestyle were among the top 100 in the country. The next year, Thomas took second place at the 2019 Ivy League championships in the men's 500-yard, 1,000-yard and 1,650-yard freestyle, shaving seconds off her earlier times.
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https://www.cnn.com/2022/02/22/us/lia-thomas-transgender-swimmer-ivy-league/index.html

Top 100 in her freshman year. Clearly mediocre. /s
 
Ziggurat said:
And? How does that make any of this OK? How is this still not deeply unfair competition?
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If it's a woman who always was a woman and is in all ways a woman, regardless of whether she was born with a penis, beating another woman... how is it unfair? A 6'2'' woman is going to destroy a 4'8'' woman at basketball, but since they are both women, we don't regard it as unfair.

Surely, the disagreement isn't about fairness? It's about whether somebody born with a penis and testicles is a woman. Once you accept her as a woman, it is no more unfair than a 6'2'' woman having an advantage in basketball, or a one legged woman having a disadvantage in the marathon.
 
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SuburbanTurkey said:
Yes, I forget that collegiate swimming is an event that so many people in our society care deeply about. Surely this isn't some proxy for a broader culture war.

ETA: Thomas is graduating and is done swimming at the collegiate level. Surely there must be another punching bag waiting in the wings.
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You don't think I care deeply about collegiate swimming? You're wrong.


Of course, I don't care specifically about that specific event, but I do care deeply about people aspiring to do things well. Competition brings that out.

I spent this weekend in a gym watching robots try to shoot balls into an 8 foot high goal, and every time our robot got one in I cheered wildly along with our team and our alliance partners. In a few cases, when the match was coming down to that buzzer-beater finish, I stood up and jumped for joy, literally.

No, I couldn't tell you who won the state basketball championship last week, or much about who is playing in the NCAA tournament known colloquially as "March Madness", but I know that it's going on, and I know that to the people on that floor, it is a huge, huge, deal. Just like the city championship of Little League. I know that "making it to states" is a huge deal, as is being valedictorian, or winning a chess match, or getting a job. That last one also carries a material reward, but that's only a small part of what it means.

(ETA: And, I mgiht add, there's a special place in my heart for athletic competition. I think it's because I was kind of pushed aside from it at the high school level, but I think more people ought to compete, and strive to be their best, athletically, whether that means winning a gold medal or successfully jogging around the block. I think it's a big deal.)

I'm into that stuff. Take a look at my sig. It's not about transgender issues, and yet it has relevance to this discussion. If you don't see that relevance, I suggest that you broaden your mind until you do.

As for your "culture wars"? I wish those people would shut up. I don't give a fig about it.
 
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Meadmaker said:
As for your "culture wars"? I wish those people would shut up. I don't give a fig about it.
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The personal was made political a long time ago. We are in the culture war the same way as the citizens in a besieged city are in the war. You can refuse to fight, but that isn't going to make the battle go away and leave you alone.
 
Meadmaker said:
So is Reka Gyorgy.
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Yes, so is every other senior who wasn't good enough to qualify. It must be heartbreaking to come so close and not quite make the cut, but such is the nature of intense competition that you just got done telling me is so important. Coming 17th for a 16 slot cut-off seems uniquely difficult to handle.
 
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SuburbanTurkey said:
I dunno, once we've reached the "the trans swimmer is swimming slow on purpose" levels of crankery I think any pretense of a reasonable conversation is long gone.

I suppose you have to either gin up crank theories or accept that Thomas didn't have as extreme and overwhelming competitive advantages as claimed.
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You're in denial. It's obvious from observing the video of her matches.


And there is also no doubt that she has an extreme and overwhelming competitive advantage. How do we know? Because all winners have overwhelming competitive advantages. That's what makes them winners.

But....what is the source of that advantage?
 
SuburbanTurkey said:
Yes, so is every other senior who wasn't good enough to qualify. It must be heartbreaking to come so close and not quite make the cut, but such is the nature of intense competition that you just got done telling me is so important. Coming 17th for a 16 slot cut-off seems uniquely difficult to handle.
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Heartless denial of reality.
 
Rolfe said:
It is completely neutral on that point.

The point you are missing is that when women delude themselves that they are male and can enter male single-sex spaces, they are not perceived as a threat.
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You are correct, but he got you to chase the squirrel.
 
Meadmaker said:
You are correct, but he got you to chase the squirrel.
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I contend that modesty concerns are the number 1 reason why people care so much about the privacy of these spaces, and it's not like men are any less capable of feeling shame or embarrassment than women.

Not wanting to be seen naked without consent is a pretty universal demand.

Thought experiment. Say everyone used one giant room to change, women and men all together naked as the day they were born, but there were guards armed with shotguns with orders to kill anyone that tried any pervert stuff. Would that make anyone feel any better? After all, the chances of being assaulted or otherwise victimized would be as close to 0% as anything else on this world.

Of course not. All this talk about how men don't care about privacy breaches because they're not threatened is total hogwash. Modesty has always been the concern shared by everyone, and it's a legitimate one.
 
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