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Trans women are not women (Part 8)

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lionking said:
Complete and utter nonsense.
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Nah, shutit is right. I think it's just not always coming through that shutit is providing what they see as the rationale used by trans activists... they are NOT advocating for that perspective.

I strongly suspect this is one of those interactions that would be perfectly clear in real life, with vocal intonation and facial expressions... but which gets lost when it's purely in text format.
 
shuttlt said:
That's only because you insist on using a definition of female that doesn't allow her to be what she wants to be. Just recant and the problem goes away. It's like Winston in 1984. All the problems stem from you insisting that O'Brien is holding up 4 fingers rather than 5. If you would just say 5 and believe it, then everything would be fine.
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Yeah, those damned enlightenment principles upon which I base my life. It would be so much easier if I could just "believe" away gravity and calories...
 
Elaedith said:
Great Ormond Street cancels a Zoom conference for trainee child psychiatrists on treatment of youth gender dysphoria, after complaints from activists that some speakers will make attendees 'feel unsafe'. One of the speakers was to be Dr Hilary Cass, author of the recent Cass review interim report.
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It's obnoxious. A civilized discussion makes them feel unsafe... but people actually violently attacking and harassing females campaigning to reduce violence against females is perfectly fine.

It doesn't matter if females actually ARE unsafe, and it certainly doesn't matter if females FEEL unsafe. We're just females we don't matter. If a male feels unsafe, even if it's someone else's thoughts that make them feel so put-upon... well, now that's a problem.

The stark difference in behavior and expectations makes it all pretty clear that EVERYONE know who is an adult human female and who is an adult human male.
 
Meadmaker said:
And yet, you don't seem interested in distinguishing between people who generally oppose puberty blockers or "sex change operations" (to use an old fashioned term) on minors, versus people who support the actions of the Texas Attorney General and Governor. It seems to me that you want to paint all of us with the same brush.


If I'm mistaken, and you don't wish to do that, perhaps you can clarify whether, when you said "supporters of this law", you only intended to actually refer to "supporters of this law", instead of people who oppose most application of puberty blockers.
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If ST were to actually make the distinction... they'd have nobody to vilify and argue with. I'm pretty sure they'd have no fun in this thread at all if they couldn't insinuate that anyone who disagrees with them is an evil right-wing bigot.
 
shuttlt said:
This kind of reasoning where, if somebody disagrees with me, their motivation must be the same as mine, but inverted, is quite common. You see it in the abortion debate where people who are uncomfortable with abortion are said to be motivated by a desire to subjugate women.
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It's also got a lot of the Illusion of Asymmetric Insight mixed in with it.
 
Emily's Cat said:
Yeah, those damned enlightenment principles upon which I base my life. It would be so much easier if I could just "believe" away gravity and calories...
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Enlightenment principles are tricky things. Rationalism deconstructed the old order, but where does the deconstruction stop? Everybody is always wanting to make the revolution stop at the point it was at when their political compass was set, but the revolution can't stop. Time makes reactionaries of us all.
 
shuttlt said:
1984 becomes an entirely different story if you come at it from the perspective of O'Brien being the hero. He's supposed to be based on James Burnham, so reading The Managerial Revolution first might help. I think that's the kind of mental leap you need to relate across the two sides of this debate.
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I'm becoming more and more convinced that several people in this world thought that both 1984 and Brave New World were how-to guides, and missed the entire concept of a cautionary tale.
 
Emily's Cat said:
It's also got a lot of the Illusion of Asymmetric Insight mixed in with it.
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Yes! I didn't know the name for it.

There is a related one I don't know the name of. There was an experiment I saw on TV where there was a little model island populated by toy pirates. A child watches the toy pirate captain put some treasure in a chest and bury bury it under a palm tree before return to the other side of the island. Another pirate goes, unobserved by the other toys, and digs up the chest and hides the treasure in a cave before reburying the chest. The pirate captain now want to go and retrieve the treasure. The child is asked where they are going to look to retrieve the treasure, and they point to the cave. The child lacks a theory of mind sufficient to model the different knowledge the different toys have.

I think sometimes this failure of understanding is involved in these kind of political discussions. There is an assumption that what I think I know is some kind of God's eye view that is shared by everybody and it's just that people who disagree with me are lying, or wish harm to the world.
 
shuttlt said:
Have you ever read Against Nature, by Haysmans? It's about these aesthete with incredibly refined tastes. He can discern the minutest trace of perfume worn by somebody across the street, and is constantly overwhelmed by his senses. He spends his days navel gazing about his exquisite suffering, the fine distinctions he can detect in his reactions to things, having a live tortoise gilded and dreaming about a trip he wants to take. He eventually does leave his house only to be unable to cope.

If you haven't read it, I think you might find it interesting.
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That sounds like I definitely need to add it to my list!
 
Emily's Cat said:
I'm becoming more and more convinced that several people in this world thought that both 1984 and Brave New World were how-to guides, and missed the entire concept of a cautionary tale.
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I'm not altogether sure that that isn't the case with Brave New World. Huxley's brother was an influential guy at UNESCO and was a big fan of eugenics. There are some weird connections there if you want to dive down the rabbit hole.
 
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Meadmaker said:
By the way, Lia Thomas was not the only transgender swimmer at the NCAA championships last week.

Iszac Henig is also transgender, and no one cares.

It would be nice to have one of our local TRAs explain why people are up in arms about Lia Thomas, but not about Iszac Henig. Hate is hate, right? We hate transgender people, right? So, we ought to hate Iszac Henig just like we hate Lia Thomas, shouldn't we? Or....maybe there's some other explanation.


ETA: Henig actually raced in the same event where Thomas finished 8th. He tied for 5th. So, he finished ahead of Thomas. They're both transgender, but no one is talking about Henig. It's all about Thomas. What could possibly be the explanation?
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It's pretty clear the most intense animus is reserved for trans women. Trans men are very rarely the focus of these hate campaigns.
 
Emily's Cat said:
So what's your thought on laws like in Canada, where the state can take a child away from their loving parents if those parents DO NOT let their children take unnecessary drugs and have surgeries that leave them permanently damaged?

Are you ALSO against Canada interfering in families, and view those laws as being motivated only by animus?
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Do you have any citation for that or am I just supposed to take this on faith?
 
Have you been living under a rock? It's been all over the news. I've read half a dozen articles about it.
 
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