Trans women are not women (Part 8)

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I think it's the feeling that is the important thing to said people? It's societal bollocks to me, but important to others.

And here's the crux of the problem.

Those feelings are very important for some people. So important, that they feel justified in trampling all over other people's rights so that their feelings are affirmed. So important to those few people, that they feel entitled to bring the force of the government to bear so that those people's feelings can be affirmed by placing male-bodied people with fully functional penises and prior sex crimes into a female-only prison... despite the actual and very real physical risk to the females.

It is feelings over reality in a way that produces actual real harm to the people who live in reality.
 
Second - from the perspective of biology, sex is NOT based on chromosomal composition (karyotype), it's based on the type of gamete around which a critter's reproductive anatomy is arranged. Read that a few times. It's not based on the actual production of gametes, and it doesn't even need to be 100% phenotypically representative. It's based on the configuration of the reproductive anatomy.

That leads into the horribly misleading term "intersex" which has been coopted by trans activists over the very vocal complaints of people who actually *have* congenital conditions of sexual development. People with CCSDs/DSDs have actual ******* medical conditions that cause them harm - they are deleterious conditions. They are NOT some magical "in between" sex. CCSDs are sex-specific conditions! Each condition affects ONLY males or ONLY females. And each individual with a CCSD is exclusively either male or female - even if they have reproductive anatomy that is unformed, malformed, or ambiguously formed.

Thanks for that information. I have been edified.
 
Rolfe's words are forceful and harsh, but not sexist.
I dunno?
The whole thing is a pile of societal bollocks dreamed up by males with AGP (mainly) to allow them to fulfil their masturbatory fantasies of occupying and colonising women's spaces and functioning in their fantasy-role as the submissive "feminine" object.
I know females that buy in to gender not being correlated with sex too.

Saying the whole thing is dreamed up by males seems a bit sexist to me.
 
I dunno?

I know females that buy in to gender not being correlated with sex too.

Saying the whole thing is dreamed up by males seems a bit sexist to me.

Rolfe's premise is that the trans rights movement is spearheaded by a subset of people, necessarily male, who suffer from autogynaephilia, and who therefore wish to access female safe spaces in order to feed their delusion. This access they are trying to normalize in the guise of transgender rights. Their cause has found significant traction, especially among people who think it really is about transgender rights, and not transsexual access to female spaces.

Whether you accept her premise, or wish to press her for evidence to support it, is up to you. But you should at least understand what you're debating, instead of resorting to knee jerk ad homs out of ignorance.
 
Rolfe's premise is that the trans rights movement is spearheaded by a subset of people, necessarily male, who suffer from autogynaephilia, and who therefore wish to access female safe spaces in order to feed their delusion. This access they are trying to normalize in the guise of transgender rights. Their cause has found significant traction, especially among people who think it really is about transgender rights, and not transsexual access to female spaces.

Whether you accept her premise, or wish to press her for evidence to support it, is up to you. But you should at least understand what you're debating, instead of resorting to knee jerk ad homs out of ignorance.
The premise is sexist.
The trans right movement could indeed be spearheaded by people who are aroused by the thought of being the opposite sex, but why is it necessarily male?
Swap out woman female from autogynaephilia and add andros? (i think, don't know much greek) and you get someone that is necessarily female with the same condition, why couldn't they be spearheading it too.
 
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The premise is sexist.
The trans right movement could indeed be spearheaded by people who are aroused by the thought of being the opposite sex, but why is it necessarily male?
Swap out woman from autogynaephilia and add andros? (i think, don't know much greek) and you get someone that is necessarily female with the same condition, why couldn't they be spearheading it too.

AGP is necessarily a male affliction.
 
So what's the difference between "gender" and "gender role"?
One is a classification of one of two categories of Human beings, based upon their biology.
The other is a description of how society seems to have come to feel people in each of those categories are expected to behave.
Gender roles are, therefore, a social construct- while gender is a description inextricably linked to biological sex.
Using "genders" when one is actually talking about "gender roles" is dishonest.
 
One is a classification of one of two categories of Human beings, based upon their biology.
The other is a description of how society seems to have come to feel people in each of those categories are expected to behave.
Gender roles are, therefore, a social construct- while gender is a description inextricably linked to biological sex.
Using "genders" when one is actually talking about "gender roles" is dishonest.

I've come to the conclusion that even gender roles is dishonest. What's a woman's gender role? How do you know if a transwoman is conforming to it? What do you do if you think she isn't?

If nothing else, Rolfe's AGP hypothesis has the virtue of giving the emperor some clothes.
 
I've come to the conclusion that even gender roles is dishonest. What's a woman's gender role? How do you know if a transwoman is conforming to it? What do you do if you think she isn't?

If nothing else, Rolfe's AGP hypothesis has the virtue of giving the emperor some clothes.
a Gender role is a social construct- subject to changes and evolution. Personally, I am happy if they don't exist at all- but they are more often than not what is being talked about when "gender" is introduced into a conversation.
 
It seems demonstrably true that gender doesn't correlate to sex.
Look around, there are females doing 'manly things' and males doing 'womanly things',
obviously gender doesn't correlate with sex.

What is a "manly thing" and what makes it "manly"?
What is a "womanly thing" and what makes it "womanly"?

IMO, you seem to be doing nothing more than generating artificial stereotypes of how males and females should behave. You are implying that women can't be interested in things that mostly attract males, and that males can't be attracted to things that mostly attract females without being transgender.

In reality we know people have all kinds of different interests and trying to categorize them into a gender based on those interests, likes and dislikes is foolish.

A woman in this context would be someone that has an urge to fit into the gender role of 'woman'.

Rigid rules about how females should dress, behave and take interest in haven't existed in more than a century. Do you really think it's a good thing to turn back the clock and pigeon hole females into antiquated gender roles?
 
I know females that wish to be treated as men
I know males that wish to be treated as women

gender not correlating with sex is clearly a thing, what are you banging on about?
It's almost like you have a preconceived notion this is not based on evidence but on FEELINGS.

Why should males and females be treated differently in the first place?

Not that I object to treating them differently if there is good reason. I'm asking you what that reason is because the the only valid reasons I can think of arise in some very specific situations like sports or the fact that females physiology make them more vulnerable to physical violence.
 
It seems demonstrably true that gender doesn't correlate to sex.
Look around, there are females doing 'manly things' and males doing 'womanly things',
obviously gender doesn't correlate with sex.
A woman in this context would be someone that has an urge to fit into the gender role of 'woman'.

I Don't know why?
In my opinion people should just be themselves and don't let society tell you what to do, but transpeople tend to want to conform to society re roles rather than do what the other letters do.

WTF are 'manly things' and 'womanly things'?
 
This is what I mean about gender roles being meaningless. Being a househusband or a stay at home dad doesn't make a man a woman. Wearing trousers or being a CEO doesn't make a woman a man. Identifying as a woman doesn't require wearing a dress and being a homemaker. Identifying as a man doesn't require putting on a suit and tie and being the sole breadwinner.
I'm not sure that we are the redefinable beings you seem to imply. After how many decades of being drilled with this ideology you still have women looking for partners who are higher status than they are and men not. This predates the evolution of humans.

If you dogmatically insist that there is no difference between men and women and that society must be equalised, then you end up with a bunch of unhappy women at the top who can't find anybody and a bunch of unhappy men at the bottom who can't find anybody. There are innumerable differences like this that then play out through society and from that we get some things being male and some things being female.

The project of doing away with these stereotypes and sex/gender differences is an exercise in anti-human denial of reality.

So about public policy: What is it about conforming to a non-sex-correlated stereotypical "gender role" that requires any new laws or regulations, or any discussion of human rights, or anything more than the exact same accommodations that people are entitled to when they identify as some kind of anthropomorphic fox?
Society need men and women, males and females to be functioning and hence they have to be protected. If you collapse them, you collapse society. The idea that there is the same need to protect the right of people to identify as anthropomorphic foxes as women is the most ridiculously "first world problems" effete nonsense I've heard in weeks. This is the thought process in a world where there are no negative consequences from sacrificing the groups that are required to keep society functioning, in order to benefit anthropomorphic foxes who might just be doing it for attention.

ETA: I should note you hilited my call for a coherent explanation of what "woman" means, separate from sex, and then completely failed to come up with such an explanation.
The idea that the world should be rebuilt on rationist grounds where we define things in the way you want "woman" to be defined and then we proceed rationally forward from there is an enlightenment project that comes in with the French Revolution with their decimalised calendars and clocks. That isn't the way humans actually work though. You didn't have Saxon's wandering around not knowing what a man and a women were because nobody had fleshed out a proper definition. Everybody here knows what the ordinary definition of man and woman is that has survived down the centuries.

The root of this is not that that definition was confusing or vague or deficient, it is that some people want to change it. If it was a question of definition, this would be a debate between lexicographers that nobody would care about. This is just an attempt the change the meaning of the word in order to achieve a political end.
 
It seems demonstrably true that gender doesn't correlate to sex.
Look around, there are females doing 'manly things' and males doing 'womanly things',
obviously gender doesn't correlate with sex.
The existence of outliers does not mean a correlation doesn't exist. You are using the work "correlate" wrong.
 
It's a propagandistic catechism that relies on a bait-and-switch in definition. It starts with viewing "men" and "women" as being terms exclusively referring to social gender roles... but then it swaps those out for cases where "men" and "women" are clearly being used in terms of sex classes.

You want proof? Go figure out what exactly those activists mean when they say "woman". Figure out what transwomen are supposed to share in common with females that they do NOT share in common with males.
Oh, I agree. I think the root of that is that their ideas wouldn't be popular if stated clearly and openly, so you have the tactics you describe.

It isn't "separate but equal". It is "separate because unequal". Females have sex-exclusive spaces BECAUSE males and females are NOT equal in terms of physical attributes, aggression, and violence.
I agree men and women are different. There is a part of me that gets riled up by this kind of thing, but I do understand. I certainly wouldn't be in favour if implementing some kind of male/female equality by removing female protections merely to achieve some kind of aesthetic "equality". Personally, I think we need to accept more difference between the lives and needs of men and women, not less.
 
The premise is sexist.
The trans right movement could indeed be spearheaded by people who are aroused by the thought of being the opposite sex, but why is it necessarily male?
Swap out woman female from autogynaephilia and add andros? (i think, don't know much greek) and you get someone that is necessarily female with the same condition, why couldn't they be spearheading it too.


Because, as always happens when you try to turn a description of particularly male behaviour round to go for "but what about the women who do the same thing?" you make no sense.

If a woman were to suffer from an equivalent condition it would in fact be something completely different - being aroused at the thought of being male. I certainly couldn't say it doesn't happen, but the psychiatrists and sexologists seem to think that something else is going on when women desire to take on a male sex role, and that autoandrophilia, if it exists at all, is extremely rare. We are not seeing organised pressure groups of women insisting that they're men in order to get sexual satisfaction from llistening to men pee or change their underwear.

Autogynaephilia is something that only happens to men. It also seems to co-exist with narcissistic personality disorder in an alarmingly high proportion of cases, and there you have the toxic mix of desiring entry as-of-right into female single-sex spaces and getting off both on being there and on making the women who are there acutely uncomfortable.

These men are not in any way occupying a feminine role or behaving in a feminine manner, except in their own porn-fuelled imaginations. Woman are socialised to be kind and considerate and to give way to the feelings of others. These men are weaponising this, demanding that women be kind and considerate and give up all their single-sex spaces to satisfy their sexual whims, and the idea of giving anything up to avoid making the women uncomfortable wouldn't even cross their minds. Women being uncomfortable in their presence isn't even a bug, it's a feature, it's part of what they get off on.

Someone posted a video clip of a TV studio conversation involving a transwoman who seemed to "pass" relatively well - until he rounded on a male panellist whose behaviour wasn't sufficiently deferential to the pronoun police and threatened him with physical violence, at a distance of about two inches. That kind of said it all about the so-called "feminine" gender role occupied by these men.

If the nunber of trans people is so tiny, why are we turning society upside down in order to appease them - forcing schoolchildren to use mixed-sex toilets and changing rooms and so on? If it's not so tiny, then women's rights are under enormous threat as invasion by a male isn't going to be a rare event that most people won't even encounter.

It's Schrodinger's trans. The poor timid oppressed trans person who has managed to capture the political agenda of most western countries and who will rip your face off if you challenge his right to touch up his make-up next to a girl who is trying to deal with her first period. The trans person who is so rare it will hardly be noticed if he's allowed to go in with the women, but is so common that you probably encounter several every say without knowning it.

And so on.

Polka is an excellent example of the non-trans trans activist, though more coy than some. Of course he doesn't care about gender roles, but some people do, and these people must be accommodated and given everything they want, and women who want something different can just suck it up. And by the way we re-defined language while you weren't looking so you can't win the argument.

And anything unpleasant men are doing, well obviously women must do it too, so there. Gotcha.
 
Rigid rules about how females should dress, behave and take interest in haven't existed in more than a century. Do you really think it's a good thing to turn back the clock and pigeon hole females into antiquated gender roles?


One thing that was actually said in the Scottish parliament reduced me to helpless giggles. Some people were questioning how this proposed new self-ID law might work in the case of bad actors, people who declared they were women for the purpose of accessing women's spaces but who weren't "really trans". Once they'd got past the "nobody would ever ever do this so it's irrelevant" bollocks, the announcement was "there will be fines for not living as a woman."

They'll have to fine a large swathe of women, then.

(In actual fact, the bad actors won't have to self-declare themselves as women to access women's spaces when this law comes in. Since there is no way to tell who has a gender recognition certificate and who hasn't by looking at them, and it will be illegal to ask, no man can be challenged. Any such challenge would be opening the woman who challenged to charges of committing a hate crime.)
 
WTF are 'manly things' and 'womanly things'?


I've noticed something interesting about a music group I belong to. We have days when we meet up in a school hall and play (mainly) renaissance music on various sizes of recorders. For every ten women there, there will be maybe two men.

Does that make recorder-playing a "womanly thing"? Are Neil and John really women, in some indefinable way? (Neil is married to Louise, who plays extremely well.)

Or is it just the case that interests correlate to sex in some weak way that isn't even worth paying attention to?
 
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