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Trans women are not women (Part 8)

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Sex and gender may be different, but "males" and "men" are both sex classes. The first denotes the small-gamete-bearing class of any sexually reproductive organism, and the latter denotes that class in the human species.

That is kind of the point, and you are begging the question. Find another word for men who want to LARP their peculiar concept of femininity. I have no particular objection to "transwomen" so long as it is understood that they are women in the same sense that seahorses are horses.
 
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p0lka said:
yeah it was this


sex and gender are different categories is my point.

where is the disingenuousness?
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Among other places, your refusal to explain what the gender category is supposed to mean, different from the sex category, in terms of trans accommodations in social attitudes and public policy.
 
theprestige said:
My position is that in the context of the question of trans rights and accommodations, socially and in public policy, gender apart from sex is meaningless.

And that's why males can't have the word woman. I'll reconsider my position if you can give a coherent explanation of what woman means in this context, separate from sex.
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It seems demonstrably true that gender doesn't correlate to sex.
Look around, there are females doing 'manly things' and males doing 'womanly things',
obviously gender doesn't correlate with sex.
A woman in this context would be someone that has an urge to fit into the gender role of 'woman'.

I Don't know why?
In my opinion people should just be themselves and don't let society tell you what to do, but transpeople tend to want to conform to society re roles rather than do what the other letters do.
 
Rolfe said:
Sex and gender may be different, but "males" and "men" are both sex classes. The first denotes the small-gamete-bearing class of any sexually reproductive organism, and the latter denotes that class in the human species.

That is kind of the point, and you are begging the question. Find another word for men who want to LARP their peculiar concept of femininity. I have no particular objection to "transwomen" so long as it is understood that they are women in the same sense that seahorses are horses.
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Male refers to biological sex which is a constant, man refers to gender which seems to be a variable. Stop conflating them.
 
p0lka said:
Male refers to biological sex which is a constant, man refers to gender which seems to be a variable. Stop conflating them.
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You are the one who is confused. Male refers to sex (the class which produces small motile gametes) in any species which reproduces sexually. Man refers to the members of that sex in the human species. Stop trying to co-opt words for your own uses.
 
Matthew Best said:
So what's the difference between "gender" and "gender role"?
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Don't give in to him. A woman is an adult human female. The vast majority of these have no urge whatsoever to fit into regressive and restrictive "gender roles". They're still women.
 
theprestige said:
We're probably mere days away from seeing:
a woman who objects to transwomen counting as women for minority representation​

Accused by a trans-activist of being:
a self-hating woman​
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Lol, I LITERALLY just left an argument where a transactivist was busy calling black females self-haters because those black females did not include and center black transwomen in their feminist undertakings.

It was almost word for word "How can you claim to stand for black women when you refuse to fight for the rights of black transwomen, do you hate yourselves so much?"

It was met with a considerably less respectful response than we use here... and that's including what is in AAH.
 
p0lka said:
It seems demonstrably true that gender doesn't correlate to sex.
Look around, there are females doing 'manly things' and males doing 'womanly things',obviously gender doesn't correlate with sex.
A woman in this context would be someone that has an urge to fit into the gender role of 'woman'.

I Don't know why?
In my opinion people should just be themselves and don't let society tell you what to do, but transpeople tend to want to conform to society re roles rather than do what the other letters do.
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OMG, people are refusing to conform to your regressive stereotypes! They must be trans!

How very odd that females - who have been harmed and excluded from society on the basis of those regressive stereotypes - might object to having their sex class redefined as conformity with them! It's such a shocker that young females that don't like ballerinas and pink dresses might object to being told that if they don't conform they must be young males in their secret magical soul!
 
Rolfe said:
You are the one who is confused. Male refers to sex (the class which produces small motile gametes) in any species which reproduces sexually. Man refers to the members of that sex in the human species. Stop trying to co-opt words for your own uses.
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On the contrary,
words and meanings change throughout time, Man and woman don't seem to correlate with any particular sex anymore, it's like gender and sex have actually become different things.
You can stamp your feet and insist it's the same as it was in the old days......but it's not.
 
p0lka said:
On the contrary,
words and meanings change throughout time, Man and woman don't seem to correlate with any particular sex anymore, it's like gender and sex have actually become different things.
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MALES decided that women means something different than it used to. FEMALES did not consent to the usurpation of the language we use to define ourselves.

p0lka said:
You can stamp your feet and insist it's the same as it was in the old days......but it's not.
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There's nothing so very refreshing as having a male mansplain to us poor stupid females that we're wrong about what a woman is. It's so very woke and new... and not at all regular every-day patriarchal misogyny. Nope, not at all.
 
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p0lka said:
On the contrary,
words and meanings change throughout time, Man and woman don't seem to correlate with any particular sex anymore, it's like gender and sex have actually become different things.
You can stamp your feet and insist it's the same as it was in the old days......but it's not.
Click to expand...


Words do change in meaning, but these changes evolve gradually and organically. Words don't suddenly mean something different just because polka - or any special-interest group - decides they do.

It also makes a complete nonsense of the language. Women - that is adult human females - do not by and large experience any urge to fit into the regressive and restrictive "gender roles" you describe. You have suddenly defined most women out of being woman. Don't be silly.
 
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p0lka said:
It seems demonstrably true that gender doesn't correlate to sex.
Look around, there are females doing 'manly things' and males doing 'womanly things',
obviously gender doesn't correlate with sex.
A woman in this context would be someone that has an urge to fit into the gender role of 'woman'.

I Don't know why?
In my opinion people should just be themselves and don't let society tell you what to do, but transpeople tend to want to conform to society re roles rather than do what the other letters do.
Click to expand...
This is what I mean about gender roles being meaningless. Being a househusband or a stay at home dad doesn't make a man a woman. Wearing trousers or being a CEO doesn't make a woman a man. Identifying as a woman doesn't require wearing a dress and being a homemaker. Identifying as a man doesn't require putting on a suit and tie and being the sole breadwinner.

So about public policy: What is it about conforming to a non-sex-correlated stereotypical "gender role" that requires any new laws or regulations, or any discussion of human rights, or anything more than the exact same accommodations that people are entitled to when they identify as some kind of anthropomorphic fox?

And look at where the public policy controversies are today: Male access to women's safe spaces - which are correlated with sex. Male access to women's sports - which are correlated with sex. You're not going to be able to address those controversies by saying gender isn't correlated with sex.

In fact, my observation over the course of this thread has been that it's very much the opposite: The only time trans-activism has any real meaning is when it's pushing for trans inclusion in areas that are very much correlated with sex. Outside of those areas, we're left with a meaningless mush of things that aren't even really correlated with gender anymore.

ETA: I should note you hilited my call for a coherent explanation of what "woman" means, separate from sex, and then completely failed to come up with such an explanation.
 
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Emily's Cat said:
MALES decided that women means something different than it used to. FEMALES did not consent to the usurpation of the language we use to define ourselves.



There's nothing so very refreshing as having a male mansplain to us poor stupid females that we're wrong about what a woman is. It's so very woke and new... and not at all regular every-day patriarchal misogyny. Nope, not at all.
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I know females that wish to be treated as men
I know males that wish to be treated as women

gender not correlating with sex is clearly a thing, what are you banging on about?
It's almost like you have a preconceived notion this is not based on evidence but on FEELINGS.
 
p0lka said:
I know females that wish to be treated as men
I know males that wish to be treated as women
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Cool, now ask them what they mean by that. Ask them to tell you how they know when they're being treated differently than what they want. Ask them what signals they try to send, to encourage people to treat them how they want.

gender not correlating with sex is clearly a thing, what are you banging on about?
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Name one specific thing, not correlated with sex, that defines someone exclusively as a woman, and not as a man. One specific thing that a male can do, that would cause observers to say, quite rightly, "that's a woman, because a man would never, could never do that thing."

It's almost like you have a preconceived notion this is not based on evidence but on FEELINGS.
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Welcome to the world of transgender activism!
 
I don't think polka realises that "I have unilaterally redefined the words we use to debate this topic to suit myself, therefore I win" isn't the victory move he thinks it is.
 
theprestige said:
This is what I mean about gender roles being meaningless. Being a househusband or a stay at home dad doesn't make a man a woman. Wearing trousers or being a CEO doesn't make a woman a man. Identifying as a woman doesn't require wearing a dress and being a homemaker. Identifying as a man doesn't require putting on a suit and tie and being the sole breadwinner.

So about public policy: What is it about conforming to a non-sex-correlated stereotypical "gender role" that requires any new laws or regulations, or any discussion of human rights, or anything more than the exact same accommodations that people are entitled to when they identify as some kind of anthropomorphic fox?

And look at where the public policy controversies are today: Male access to women's safe spaces - which are correlated with sex. Male access to women's sports - which are correlated with sex. You're not going to be able to address those controversies by saying gender isn't correlated with sex.

In fact, my observation over the course of this thread has been that it's very much the opposite: The only time trans-activism has any real meaning is when it's pushing for trans inclusion in areas that are very much correlated with sex. Outside of those areas, we're left with a meaningless mush of things that aren't even really correlated with gender anymore.
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yeah, I personally don't care about gender, I'm me.

for a lot of people it does matter a great deal though, it is a thing.
 
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