Trans women are not women (Part 8)

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Rolfe said:
I don't think polka realises that "I have unilaterally redefined the words we use to debate this topic to suit myself, therefore I win" isn't the victory move he thinks it is.
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It doesn't help that he hasn't actually supplied any redefinition. Just some vague handwaving to the effect that there is one. Somewhere.
 
theprestige said:
Cool, now ask them what they mean by that. Ask them to tell you how they know when they're being treated differently than what they want. Ask them what signals they try to send, to encourage people to treat them how they want.


Name one specific thing, not correlated with sex, that defines someone exclusively as a woman, and not as a man. One specific thing that a male can do, that would cause observers to say, quite rightly, "that's a woman, because a man would never, could never do that thing."


Welcome to the world of transgender activism!
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They want to feel like they fit in to some societal bollocks that I keep saying is not necessary in the first place, they don't listen to me.
 
p0lka said:
yeah, I personally don't care about gender, I'm me.
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In theory, though, you should be able to recognize it when you see it, and respect it when asked. Instead you dodge away from defining it or explaining it in any meaningful way. How does that help you better relate to transwomen, and treat them the way they want to be treated?

for a lot of people it does matter a great deal though, it is a thing.
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You still can't answer what this means to you in terms of public policy.
 
p0lka said:
yeah, I personally don't care about gender, I'm me.

for a lot of people it does matter a great deal though, it is a thing.
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So what? For some people, Marvel vs DC matters a great deal. How much you or anyone else cares about a topic isn’t enough to justify government intervention. Nor can anyone’s interest in gender turn gender into sex or sex into gender.
 
Human beings that are either male (of the class that produces small motile gametes) or female (of the class that produces large, non-motile gametes), either of which can dress and behave and take any drugs they want or have any cosmetic surgery they want, without changing the class they belong to.
 
p0lka said:
They want to feel like they fit in to some societal bollocks that I keep saying is not necessary in the first place, they don't listen to me.
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Resolved: Absent any correlation with sex, gender is societal bollocks that isn't even necessary in the first place. Not only that, but even they can't tell you what exactly those societal bollocks are.

This is, quite truthfully and dispassionately, quod erat demonstrandum: Take away the sex correlation, and all that's left of "gender" is a miserable pile of regressive stereotypes that even modern trans-activists can't really describe and don't really believe in.

Take away the sex correlation, and there's no need for any debate about public policy, or trans rights.
 
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Rolfe said:
Aber has just saved me a fair bit of typing, thank you.
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Thanks to you and to Aber and others for that sensible rebuttal. I see now that there is another way to view the intersex phenomena.

Caster Semenya is a good case in point. Apparently he has 5-apha reductase deficiency, which is a disorder of males and causes ambiguous external genitalia which appear female in the newborn. In most cases more-or-less normal male genitalia appear at puberty, although I gather the male genitalia can remain internal in a small number of cases. Everyone close to Caster Semenya must have known he was a boy since he was at least in his mid teens. Serious deception going on there. (I gather he now has two children by his "lesbian" wife.)
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Do we know that those children are Caster Semenya's own biological children? Sometimes couples with infertility issues may use sperm from a sperm donor. According to this, "Most affected individuals are unable to have biological children without assisted reproduction." Exactly what that means is unclear to me. "Assisted reproduction" could mean any number of things.
 
Puppycow said:
Thanks to you and to Aber and others for that sensible rebuttal. I see now that there is another way to view the intersex phenomena.



Do we know that those children are Caster Semenya's own biological children? Sometimes couples with infertility issues may use sperm from a sperm donor. According to this, "Most affected individuals are unable to have biological children without assisted reproduction." Exactly what that means is unclear to me. "Assisted reproduction" could mean any number of things.
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Caster Semenya and other intersex individuals are not the topic of this thread. It would be a much shorter, much less contentious thread if it were. If that's the thread you want, please start it elsewhere.
 
Rolfe said:
I don't think polka realises that "I have unilaterally redefined the words we use to debate this topic to suit myself, therefore I win" isn't the victory move he thinks it is.
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Stop assuming everyone's aiming for a 'gotcha' when they might just be interested in the truth of the matter.
It's not a competition Rolfe.
 
Puppycow said:
Do we know that those children are Caster Semenya's own biological children? Sometimes couples with infertility issues may use sperm from a sperm donor. According to this, "Most affected individuals are unable to have biological children without assisted reproduction." Exactly what that means is unclear to me. "Assisted reproduction" could mean any number of things.
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I am not certain. The articles I have read are rather coy, but the general implication is that they are Semenya's biological children. It has been known for some time that he has testicles, although unless they were exteriorised in some way (as was done for Erik Schinneger) there would presumably be problems with spermatogenesis.
 
theprestige said:
Resolved: Absent any correlation with sex, gender is societal bollocks that isn't even necessary in the first place. Not only that, but even they can't tell you what exactly those societal bollocks are.

This is, quite truthfully and dispassionately, quod erat demonstrandum: Take away the sex correlation, and all that's left of "gender" is a miserable pile of regressive stereotypes that even modern trans-activists can't really describe and don't really believe in.

Take away the sex correlation, and there's no need for any debate about public policy, or trans rights.
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I think it's the feeling that is the important thing to said people? It's societal bollocks to me, but important to others.
 
p0lka said:
Stop assuming everyone's aiming for a 'gotcha' when they might just be interested in the truth of the matter.
It's not a competition Rolfe.
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I don't assume that everyone is aiming for a gotcha. You, however, clearly are.
 
theprestige said:
Resolved: Absent any correlation with sex, gender is societal bollocks that isn't even necessary in the first place. Not only that, but even they can't tell you what exactly those societal bollocks are.

This is, quite truthfully and dispassionately, quod erat demonstrandum: Take away the sex correlation, and all that's left of "gender" is a miserable pile of regressive stereotypes that even modern trans-activists can't really describe and don't really believe in.

Take away the sex correlation, and there's no need for any debate about public policy, or trans rights.
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The whole thing is a pile of societal bollocks dreamed up by males with AGP (mainly) to allow them to fulfil their masturbatory fantasies of occupying and colonising women's spaces and functioning in their fantasy-role as the submissive "feminine" object.
 
theprestige said:
Resolved: Absent any correlation with sex, gender is societal bollocks that isn't even necessary in the first place. Not only that, but even they can't tell you what exactly those societal bollocks are.

This is, quite truthfully and dispassionately, quod erat demonstrandum: Take away the sex correlation, and all that's left of "gender" is a miserable pile of regressive stereotypes that even modern trans-activists can't really describe and don't really believe in.

Take away the sex correlation, and there's no need for any debate about public policy, or trans rights.
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I can't see any obvious argument against that statement. Well stated.
 
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Rolfe said:
The whole thing is a pile of societal bollocks dreamed up by males with AGP (mainly) to allow them to fulfil their masturbatory fantasies of occupying and colonising women's spaces and functioning in their fantasy-role as the submissive "feminine" object.
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Sexist.
edit: don't be
 
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Rolfe said:
Words do change in meaning, but these changes evolve gradually and organically. Words don't suddenly mean something different just because polka - or any special-interest group - decides they do.

It also makes a complete nonsense of the language. Women - that is adult human females - do not by and large experience any urge to fit into the regressive and restrictive "gender roles" you describe. You have suddenly defined most women out of being woman. Don't be silly.
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Exactly!
 
theprestige said:
Resolved: Absent any correlation with sex, gender is societal bollocks that isn't even necessary in the first place. Not only that, but even they can't tell you what exactly those societal bollocks are.

This is, quite truthfully and dispassionately, quod erat demonstrandum: Take away the sex correlation, and all that's left of "gender" is a miserable pile of regressive stereotypes that even modern trans-activists can't really describe and don't really believe in.

Take away the sex correlation, and there's no need for any debate about public policy, or trans rights.
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Well said.
 
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