The Russian Invasion of the Ukraine.

[Aridas]

Again "Just do what the madman wants so nobody gets hurt" and "Hey just give the madman what he wants because I love the madman and want him to win" are functionally identical.

Fox is a bit notorious for seizing on any excuse to push the goal they want to push, after all, even if it's directly opposite of an excuse that they used previously.

 

[Ivor the Engineer]

I'd rather see it used to pay for the reconstruction of the Ukraine. Us First-Worlders can pay our own gas bills.

I take your:

Give it to victims of war.

And raise to:

Spend it on saving life on earth from the effects of climate change.

Your turn.

 

[Aridas]

In what ways could they really get worse for the actual citizens of Ukraine?

...When it comes to whether things can be made worse for the Ukrainians, the answer is nearly inevitably that they can in lots of ways. The current and ongoing destruction of infrastructure, alone, is enough that the situation is gradually getting worse and worse, before getting to all the rest.

 

[theprestige]

Well, I think the net losses to their economy and standing in the world will far outweigh any gains in Ukraine - which likely will not be pacified in the foreseeable future even if Russia should eventually occupy most of the country.

I guess the Ukrainians can make light of being the victims of of Russian pacification by telling themselves Russia lost the war.

 

[crescent]

Me being armchair military analyst again:

Here's a video of some abandoned Russian vehicles
https://twitter.com/AVindman/status/1499746353030864901
We're used to seeing videos like that by now. One these particular vehicles, the letter "Z" is much larger that what we were seeing at the beginning of this.

My guess? Russian are making the markings bigger to aide efforts at Russian close air support. I've read a number of posts by actual military analysists who were thinking that one of the reasons Russian close air support seems to be lacking was just that pilots can't tell Ukrainian and Russian vehicles apart (both use the same old Soviet-design equipment).

That's not the only reason Russian air support has been less effective than people expected, but it might show Russia adapting to at least one of the reasons.

 

[Oystein]

I said "help preserve the territorial integrity of Ukraine".

I mean, if NATO protects the Western part of Ukraine, after an invitation by the legitimate authorities of this country, one may reasonably hope that Putin would no longer try to conquer the whole of Ukraine, with devastating consequences, in terms of destructions, millions of refugees and so on.

The great military power of the United States would then have a useful purpose, without firing a single shot or endangering a soldier, since there are no Russian troops where NATO would go....

What you describe there is "make absolutely 100% certain that the territorial integrity of Ukraine will forever be destroyed", which is kinda the precise and exact opposite of "help preserve the territorial integrity of Ukraine".

 

[Oystein]

Spreading "lies" about the Russian military and the "special military operation" is now illegal with people risking up to 15 years in prison.

Doesn't that make Putin and his clique criminals now, who face up to 15 years in prison"?

 

[theprestige]

Nonsense.
This is tactical and/or strategic.
I am not blaming anyone. That's a strawman.

You're framing it as Georgia and Moldova giving Russia an excuse to invade. That's (preemptive) victim-blaming and abuse-enablement. You say, literally:

"It would be totally transparent that he ONLY reason for Georgia to join the EU is to fall under this CSDP provision, i.e. to draw EU countries into a direct military confrontation - a war - with Russia."​

This is pure Quisling stuff. Georgia doesn't want a direct military confrontation with Russia. It doesn't want to draw EU into a direct military confrontation with Russia. It wants to join the CSDP to deter a direct military confrontation with Russia. You turn the whole thing on its head, condemning Georgia for trying to avoid a war by seeking strong allies.

Why are you arguing that countries should not seek strong allies as a hedge against Russian aggression? Why are you arguing that they should keep themselves weak and isolated? Why are you advocating what is most convenient for Russian warmongering, and most awful for Russia's neighbors? This is Quisling stuff and you know it.

 

[lobosrul5]

China will forgive them. Russia is pivoting towards a Eurasian alliance. China and Russia are also investing heavily in Africa. Russia can market its products elsewhere if the economically declining West doesn't want them (or is refused them...).

The economy* of Africa is absolutely miniscule compared to the west. China knows the West is far more important to them than Russia. Good chance Xi is looking at this and seeing just how weak Russia is, probably seen how the West reacted so he's scrapped a Taiwanese invasion plan. They'll drop them like a hot box of plutonium if they think its in their best interest. I at least fully expect China to act rationally, always in their best interest, but rationally so.

A GDP of about 7 tril compared to about 60 tril for N America and the EU/UK.

 

[JoeMorgue]

A robber comes into my house and tries to take everything I own, none of which he is legally entitled to and morally deserves.

Going "Okay he wants everything, you want to give up nothing, so the logical and moral thing to do is to compromise and give him half" is the most insane kind of appeasement to evil concept of "fairness" I've ever heard of.

 

[Andy_Ross]

BBC Rolling

Polish 'ultra' fans intimidate BBC Africa reporters in migrant arrival town

My BBC Africa colleagues and I have been intimidated by "ultra" football fans in Przemyśl, in southern Poland, where we have been reporting on those fleeing the conflict in Ukraine.

We had been hearing over the last few days that they had come into the city to "protect" it from African and Asian refugees crossing over from Ukraine.

 

[Oystein]

In what ways could they really get worse for the actual citizens of Ukraine?

Ingraham is Just Asking Questions.

 

[Oystein]

When does Putin stop looking like a Commie and start looking like a Czar?

Early 2000.

 

[Oystein]

You're framing it as Georgia and Moldova giving Russia an excuse to invade. That's (preemptive) victim-blaming and abuse-enablement. You say, literally:

"It would be totally transparent that he ONLY reason for Georgia to join the EU is to fall under this CSDP provision, i.e. to draw EU countries into a direct military confrontation - a war - with Russia."​

This is pure Quisling stuff. Georgia doesn't want a direct military confrontation with Russia. It doesn't want to draw EU into a direct military confrontation with Russia. It wants to join the CSDP to deter a direct military confrontation with Russia. You turn the whole thing on its head, condemning Georgia for trying to avoid a war by seeking strong allies.

Why are you arguing that countries should not seek strong allies as a hedge against Russian aggression? Why are you arguing that they should keep themselves weak and isolated? Why are you advocating what is most convenient for Russian warmongering, and most awful for Russia's neighbors? This is Quisling stuff and you know it.

You're right.
That's a correct reading of what I wrote - and it wasn't actually what I meant to write, and that is entirely my fault. Apologies. Could be a result of incomplete editing.

There's a clause missing:
"It would be totally transparent that he ONLY reason for Georgia to join the EU is to fall under this CSDP provision, i.e. to draw EU countries into a direct military confrontation - a war - with Russia should Russia attack."

My point is: No one in the EU is interested at this time to be potentially drawn into a direct military confrontation in Georgia, and so no one can be interested at this time to actually allow Georgia in by way of a very fast - tracked application process. That's just not how the EU works: You typically would have years and years during which the applicant country must make its institutions and economy "EU-ready".

And so, Georgia's public call to become a EU member now has no realistic chance - but it is heard by Putin, of course. The rational course of action for Putin is then to make sure Georgia stop applying to any such Western club - and make sure Putin-style.
This is entirely predictable.
Not that Georgia would be safe if they didn't yell this.
It's just not making their chances any better.

It's like your attractive sister lives next door to a known sex offender of superior strength, and she has no resources to lock her door safely, and you are too far away to come to protect her. It is not smart of her then to come out of the house and call loudly for brother, when there is no way that brother will come. It would be smarter to stay at home and try not to arouse the evil neighbor.

For there may come a time when brother is closer, or the neighbor gets weaker, or loses his appetite for attractive sisters.

No, this is not "giving the sex offender an excuse". It's just being smart: Close your door as best as you can, and try to stay safe.

 

[theprestige]

A robber comes into my house and tries to take everything I own, none of which he is legally entitled to and morally deserves.

Going "Okay he wants everything, you want to give up nothing, so the logical and moral thing to do is to compromise and give him half" is the most insane kind of appeasement to evil concept of "fairness" I've ever heard of.

Even "it's just stuff, they can have all of it, I'm not going to fight them for it" is a better kind of appeasement, not to fairness, but to a violent aggressor.

Of course, one's homeland, livelihood, freedom, friends and family, aren't "just stuff" that one can simply give away rather than repay violence with violence.

 

[crescent]

Russia is shelling the hell out of Mariupol.

Russia is now claiming that the damage is caused by Ukrainian forces fighting each other (Azov v Ukrainian Marines).

As usual, this contradicts other Russian propaganda talking points - they have been loath to discuss the presence of regular Ukrainian forces there, pretty well insisting the all Ukrainian forces in Mariupol are Azov and Right Sector.

More lies by Russia.

 

[Oystein]

Why are you arguing that countries should not seek strong allies as a hedge against Russian aggression? Why are you arguing that they should keep themselves weak and isolated? Why are you advocating what is most convenient for Russian warmongering, and most awful for Russia's neighbors? This is Quisling stuff and you know it.

Now that is not what I am arguing.
I am very much for seeking strong allies.
But when you are in a situation where you can be almost 100% that the strong ally is not going to come to your rescue, you should not call on them loudly and for your enemy to hear.

I wish there was a strong resolve in NATO to defend Georgia, and Ukraine, now, even without a formal alliance. But that is not realistic at this point.
And a super-fast-track alliance is, in practical terms, no different to aiding them despite non-alliance. It's not realistic.

Reality is that Russia is in a far better position to really hurt Georgia than the EU is to help Georgia. You need to take reality into account when planning your own actions.

 

[Arcade22]

Doesn't that make Putin and his clique criminals now, who face up to 15 years in prison"?

No it does not. Russia's people have given Putin not only power over life and death over each-and-every one of them, but also the power to dictate truth itself.

 

[Oystein]

Even "it's just stuff, they can have all of it, I'm not going to fight them for it" is a better kind of appeasement, not to fairness, but to a violent aggressor.

Of course, one's homeland, livelihood, freedom, friends and family, aren't "just stuff" that one can simply give away rather than repay violence with violence.

Analogies with robbers and burglars often have one weakness: The victim of a crime, as long as it survives at all, has recourse to authorities - to a force greater than hir own and greater than that of the robber. And so the usual and generalized advice is actually to hunker down, give in to demands, NOT fight back - and try to resolve the situation, get justice and restitution, some time later.
In the case of war between countries, this option, by and large, does not exist.

 

[sarge]

Ive split a handful of posts to a thread devoted to disinformation and propaganda associated with the Russian Invasion of Ukraine

Posted By: sarge

http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?t=357394