The Russian Invasion of the Ukraine.

[trustbutverify]

I don't think he has all the cards. Given the oligarchs are getting anxious, a few legislators (or whatever they are called) actually spoke out against Putin and the Russian public is protesting in the streets, I think firing off a nuke or two would sink Putin and he likely knows it.

I could be wrong of course, but that's how I read the cards.

Which is why I said "most" of the cards, not all.

I don't know if Putin's willing to go all the way, but if he can convince the rest of the world that he is, then he's in the drivers seat. During the last few months there have been comments pointing to a difference in Putin's demeanor.

 

[Mike!]

Some interesting speculation on Russian maintenance in this thread:

https://twitter.com/TrentTelenko/status/1499164245250002944?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw%7Ctwcamp%5Etweetembed%7Ctwterm%5E1499164245250002944%7Ctwgr%5E%7Ctwcon%5Es1_&ref_url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.redditmedia.com%2Fmediaembed%2Fliveupdate%2F18hnzysb1elcs%2FLiveUpdate_891df1d4-9a8c-11ec-ab5e-92be2145d5a0%2F0

Oh yeah, it's true, rubber don't like sunshine. My drag racing buddies have sheets they put over the expensive rear tires to protect them from overt UV exposure when not in use.

 

[The Don]

In these dark times it is of critical importance to remind everyone that NATO and the West really is the Great Satan while Russia is the Lesser Satan:



https://www.theguardian.com/politic...tement-criticising-nato-after-starmer-warning

I was a member of the Labour Party for 25+ years and a lifelong Labour voter.

Those 11 MPs fully deserve all the criticism they get, not only for their original muddle-headed position that NATO is the aggressor but then being so craven that they're not willing to stick to their guns.

I hope they're proud about carrying Putin's water and unlike the Conservative Party, they're doing it for free.

 

[MarkCorrigan]

As a committed Socialist and current member of the Labour party, I am ashamed and disgusted by the Corbynites in the party.

 

[Aridas]

What harm is it doing (other than to the Russian people themselves)?

What harm does disinformation spread by very biased very low credibility sources ever do?

The same arguments can be made against the Western media which is owned by wealthy corporate barons (eg Fox or Murdoch) and have a heavy pro-conservative bias.

Claimed "conservative" bias, at least, much as general BS, extremism, libertarianism, and reactionary thinking, among other things that objectively speaking aren't conservative at all are frequently being passed off as "conservative," which makes it easier to gull their audience. Going a bit further, though, there is a distinction that can be made between hostile foreign disinformation and hostile domestic disinformation that generally manifests in how easy it is to take action against them politically and what actions are available to take. With that said, I have no problem with holding Fox accountable for all the intentional BS and disinformation they spew, much like I have no problem holding any outlet accountable for intentional BS and disinformation, especially when it causes harm.

Obviously I am going to believe in Western media reports about the war long before I believe in a single word from RT but there is no denying the harm Western media does - especially the way they villainize all forms of social programs in favour of unfettered capitalism.

Whataboutism isn't all that meaningful a tactic here, honestly. Being in favor of there being consequences for harm done by foreign disinformers doesn't even remotely mean that one isn't in favor of consequences for harm done by domestic disinformers.

 

[JoeMorgue]

Shocking the Proudly Wrong are taking even this horrible event to "What's the harm in disinformation? Let people be wrong" us even further into the Post-Fact Dream World they want to live in.

 

[TurkeysGhost]

Russian Oligarchs might be pariahs in Europe, but finding safe harbor in Israel.

Europe Bans Russian Jets Over Ukraine War, but Oligarchs Still Free to Land in Israel
Commercial and private flights from Russia to Tel Aviv airport see almost no disruptions, with three private jets landing in just a day

While the European Union imposed a sweeping ban on Russian aircraft entering its airspace since Moscow launched its offensive in Ukraine, commercial and private flights from Russia keep landing in Israel.

According to the Israel Airports Authority, at least eight commercial flights from Russia have landed in Israel since the invasion started last week, and only three of all Russian Tel Aviv-bound flights were canceled.

Private planes from Russia are also continuing to fly as normal and land in Israel. During February, 24 private planes from Russia have landed in Israel, carrying 36 passengers.

Four private planes arrived since the fighting started, three of which landed on Monday, carrying three passengers.

The situation for flights between Israel to Ukraine is completely different. Fifteen flights to Ukraine were scheduled to land in Israel since the war broke out – and all of them were cancelled.

https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/.premium-europe-bans-russian-jets-but-oligarchs-still-free-to-land-in-israel-1.10643636

ETA:

Israel’s Holocaust museum is so dependent on a Russian oligarch that it wants to protect him from sanctions

Yad Vashem, Israel’s official Holocaust memorial and museum, is embroiled in controversy after attempting to intervene in planned sanctions against Israeli Russian billionaire Roman Abramovich, owner of the Chelsea Premier League soccer team and a longtime supporter of Russian President Vladimir Putin.

In a letter to U.S. Ambassador Tom Nides, Yad Vashem, together with the country’s chief Ashkenazi Rabbi David Lau and Sheba Medical Center Director Yitshak Kreiss, asked that the United States not sanction Abramovich, a major donor to the memorial and other Jewish causes. They said that sanctioning him would cause harm to Jewish institutions that rely on him for donations, said Yad Vashem Chairman Dani Dayan. He said Abramovich was the museum’s second-largest private donor, after the late Sheldon Adelson and his widow, Miriam.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/2022/03/02/israel-russia-oligarch-yad-vashem-ukraine/

 

[theprestige]

RT Agonistes: Russian propaganda outlets have no significant effect on public opinion.

Also RT Agonistes: Shutting down Russian propaganda outlets will have a disastrous effect on public opinion.

 

[psionl0]

What harm does disinformation spread by very biased very low credibility sources ever do?

That's a poor non answer. All you did was repeat the low credibility statement that I have already made and avoided answering the question about "harm" altogether.

The Russians may well be infiltrating other media sources to spread disinformation but RT is exactly what it appears to be - a mouthpiece for the Russian government and everybody knows it. Trying to prevent people from viewing it because they might be influenced by it is nanny statism at its worst.

 

[Aridas]

To poke at a few bits of twitter information, for what it's worth...

KT CounterIntelligence

Russian forces apparently transporting ammunition in medical vehicles.

And that's a war crime.

The Kyiv Independent

Fitch and Moody's cut Russia's credit rating to “junk.”

Rating agencies slashed Russia’s credit rating by six notches as a result of the Western sanctions.

Also, this, which is probably less verifiable, but is getting poked at in fair part because it points to another form of number manipulation that theprestige and I mentioned.

Those are russian soldiers. The guy says they haven't eat normally for 3 days already, left there without any proper equipment as cannon-meat, sleeping on the floor, feet wet. And their commanders ask them to sign some docs that they were dismissed previously.

 

[JoeMorgue]

That's a poor non answer. All you did was repeat the low credibility statement that I have already made and avoided answering the question about "harm" altogether.

The Russians may well be infiltrating other media sources to spread disinformation but RT is exactly what it appears to be - a mouthpiece for the Russian government and everybody knows it. Trying to prevent people from viewing it because they might be influenced by it is nanny statism at its worst.

People are dying and yet again you're worried that you might one day live in a world where you being wrong is too hard on you.

 

[Aridas]

That's a poor non answer. All you did was repeat the low credibility statement that I have already made and avoided answering the question about "harm" altogether.

Perhaps. I have no problem with saying that I don't believe that this thread is a correct one to delve deeply into that tangent, though, and further, that my willingness to delve deeply into the subject at present is greatly reduced by the fact that I am about to go to sleep.

 

[psionl0]

RT Agonistes: Russian propaganda outlets have no significant effect on public opinion.

Also RT Agonistes: Shutting down Russian propaganda outlets will have a disastrous effect on public opinion.

What is an "RT Agoniste" and who is using superlatives such as "disastrous effect"?

 

[psionl0]

People are dying and yet again you're worried that you might one day live in a world where you being wrong is too hard on you.

That is the exact opposite of what I am worrying about but whenever you start going on about "proudly wrong" it suggests that you are about to make this about religion like you always do so, carry on.

 

[The Don]

BBC sports writers are getting all misty-eyed reminiscing about Roman Abramovich and his time as owner of Chelsea.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/60601466

I think it's a measure of the way in which unsatisfactory people can buy their way into Britain's goodwill via football (he's not the only one, there are plenty of dodgy Eastern European and Middle Eastern owners as well) that he's being portrayed as a patron of the footballing arts rather than as a robber-baron oligarch and good friend and close associate of a despot currently invading a neighbouring country.

 

[trustbutverify]

 

[jimbob]

BBC sports writers are getting all misty-eyed reminiscing about Roman Abramovich and his time as owner of Chelsea.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/60601466

I think it's a measure of the way in which unsatisfactory people can buy their way into Britain's goodwill via football (he's not the only one, there are plenty of dodgy Eastern European and Middle Eastern owners as well) that he's being portrayed as a patron of the footballing arts rather than as a robber-baron oligarch and good friend and close associate of a despot currently invading a neighbouring country.

He might have been a criminal, but remember that Al Capone was a talented baseball player. His mistake was not being more generous to sport as a crime lord.

 

[TurkeysGhost]

BBC sports writers are getting all misty-eyed reminiscing about Roman Abramovich and his time as owner of Chelsea.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/60601466

I think it's a measure of the way in which unsatisfactory people can buy their way into Britain's goodwill via football (he's not the only one, there are plenty of dodgy Eastern European and Middle Eastern owners as well) that he's being portrayed as a patron of the footballing arts rather than as a robber-baron oligarch and good friend and close associate of a despot currently invading a neighbouring country.

It remains to be seen if outrage about Russian aggression is sufficient to overcome various local allegiances to specific oligarchs that park their money around the globe.

To my eye, targeted economic sanctions against the Russian elites is probably one of the best ways to pressure Putin. Pessimistically, I suspect many of these oligarchs are going to manage to carve out exemptions thanks to the local influence their huge mountains of money can buy, be it in the UK or Israel or wherever.

I imagine that targeted sanctions against the ruling class of Russia would be far more effective than general sanctions that are going to lead to huge numbers of powerless Russians becoming more impoverished, but the everyday Russian nobody doesn't have powerful friends willing to go to bat for them. I suspect that oligarchs will still manage to find safe harbors for their cash abroad even as sanctions make the Russian general public howl.

 

[Jimbo07]

Don't piss your pants just because Putin puts Russia’s strategic missile forces on "special alert", just ignore it like when they send their bombers around the British isles every now and then.

Canada (as part of NORAD) has a long-standing history of escorting Russian 'Bear' Bombers out of the North American ADIZ. It's almost a game.

Don't bother wasting money on iodine tablets either...

I haven't.

All of the above is fine, even the Swedish intercept. It's situation normal. Nobody (not even NATO) is afraid of Putin's sabre-rattling over Ukraine. The concern you haven't addressed, is what happens if it changes? What happens if NATO gets into an actual shooting war with Russia?

Some folks here have talked about a limited exchange of tactical nuclear weapons. What's the likelihood of it staying that way? What is the escalation path between setting off a single device and a full-on conflagration?

 

[gnome]

That's a poor non answer. All you did was repeat the low credibility statement that I have already made and avoided answering the question about "harm" altogether.

The Russians may well be infiltrating other media sources to spread disinformation but RT is exactly what it appears to be - a mouthpiece for the Russian government and everybody knows it. Trying to prevent people from viewing it because they might be influenced by it is nanny statism at its worst.

Are we still talking about Google here? Since when is Google a "state", and since when is trying not to lead users there preventing people from going there?