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Cont: Jogging in Georgia while black - The Trial

SuburbanTurkey said:
Yes, you've pointed out many times that we will never really be certain of what Arbery thought about the illegal attempt to arrest him immediately preceding his murder. I think most everyone in the thread is still trying to figure out what significance you find in this.
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I've answered this many times. Here, I'll do so yet again:

Some posters here have projected feelings onto Arbery, specifically that he was terrified. As I see him charging the cowardly gunman in the video, I don't see a timid rabbit. I see a man with balls of steel, and more power to the deceased brother. I would only wish I would have such courage at that point. That some posters here can't even give him that recognition says more about them than the point I am making.

He was being menaced by two trucks and two gunmen who clearly didn't have anything nice planned for him. Was he scared, tired, pissed off? Was his final charge at his murderer an act of desperation or an act of indignation? Who knows, because he died before he could say. Does it really matter?
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I think it does. I think that when some posters here ascribe weaker traits to a victim than what we actually see, it should be called out.
 
Thermal said:
I've answered this many times. Here, I'll do so yet again:

Some posters here have projected feelings onto Arbery, specifically that he was terrified. As I see him charging the cowardly gunman in the video, I don't see a timid rabbit. I see a man with balls of steel, and more power to the deceased brother. I would only wish I would have such courage at that point. That some posters here can't even give him that recognition says more about them than the point I am making.



I think it does. I think that when some posters here ascribe weaker traits to a victim than what we actually see, it should be called out.
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Seems an odd thing to quibble about, seeing as it's impossible to know. Unless you got him on the spirit phone, your position is just as speculative as the alternative.
 
SuburbanTurkey said:
Seems an odd thing to quibble about, seeing as it's impossible to know. Unless you got him on the spirit phone, your position is just as speculative as the alternative.
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You're still not getting this?

I made a passing comment about the time versus distance, showing that he was actually moving at a slowish walking speed (as another poster calculated it as). Y'all have dogpiled on it and blew it out of proportion. Again, it's you guys, not yours truly, with the weird obsession.

And no, my argument is based on the facts we have. The run at the gunman without hesitation, and the pace of the chase. Yours is based on absolutely nothing but a projection you like to assign.
 
Thermal said:
And no, my argument is based on the facts we have. The run at the gunman without hesitation, and the pace of the chase. Yours is based on absolutely nothing but a projection you like to assign.
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The run at the gunman was desperation driven by absolute fear. Are you kidding me? He had nowhere else to go and had a shotgun drawn on him.

I don't give a ******* **** how fast he could or was running. Running fast isn't the only way to show fear. It isn't the only way to get away and in a panicked brain he might have been considering his options. He had been running a significant period of time and could have been running the options through his head. He could have had a ******* cramp.

No, I like to think that he had nerves of steel as well, but as you said that isn't the norm for anyone. Fear is the natural reaction here. He was cornered and he fought back. For that he absolutely deserves admiration.
 
Thermal said:
You're still not getting this?

I made a passing comment about the time versus distance, showing that he was actually moving at a slowish walking speed (as another poster calculated it as). Y'all have dogpiled on it and blew it out of proportion. Again, it's you guys, not yours truly, with the weird obsession.

And no, my argument is based on the facts we have. The run at the gunman without hesitation, and the pace of the chase. Yours is based on absolutely nothing but a projection you like to assign.
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I generally think the whole dichotomy is false in premise. Most people reacting violently in self-defense are simultaneously frightened and bold. Fight, flight, and freezing are all rooted in very similar emotional responses to danger. Making the decision to charge someone brandishing a shotgun is not an example of purely one or the other emotion.

As an outside observer, I would only say that attacking his assailants was not Arbery's first choice, but only came after a somewhat prolonged and outmatched pursuit in which he had very little real chance of escaping.
 
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Thermal said:
And no, my argument is based on the facts we have. The run at the gunman without hesitation, and the pace of the chase. Yours is based on absolutely nothing but a projection you like to assign.
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No as always you argument is one tiny detail you've up a decided to blow out or proportion and defend like tiger defending its cubs for no reason.

You always do this and then screech about people pointing out you always do this. Every racial topic you make sure there's one page long hijack about nothing but arguing with the "This obviously racist and that's bad" side about some minor detail nobody cares about then pitching a fit because people point out you always have to argue with the "This is racism" side about something.
 
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On topic, I'm assuming the Federal verdict can be appealed as well? Is that a thing we'll probably see, even if only as a matter of procedure?
 
JoeMorgue said:
On topic, I'm assuming the Federal verdict can be appealed as well? Is that a thing we'll probably see, even if only as a matter of procedure?
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It's really hard to tell. I can't imagine these guys have a lot of money left. They've gone through 2 full trials. Even if they were well off that would be a lot of money to spend. Travis was living with Ma and Pa, and talked about just starting a newer job. I can't imagine he has deep pockets to keep this going.

I'd imagine it will be appealed at some point if he can maybe get his hands on a public defender.
 
Thermal said:
Come on Darat. You're better than this. You know the argument was simply that he was not exhausted from racing for his life, as claimed. He was moving pretty slowly. That that Arbery was likely not as timid and cowed as posters here like to think of him.
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And your point is?
 
plague311 said:
It's really hard to tell. I can't imagine these guys have a lot of money left. They've gone through 2 full trials. Even if they were well off that would be a lot of money to spend. Travis was living with Ma and Pa, and talked about just starting a newer job. I can't imagine he has deep pockets to keep this going.

I'd imagine it will be appealed at some point if he can maybe get his hands on a public defender.
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Sadly, and I'm hope I'm wrong at this, I still see a lot people on the right throwing money at this to score a point, any point, in the stupid made up "There's too much anti-racism" culture war they are in.

If they want money for an appeal... I kinda think they'll be able to find it.
 
plague311 said:
The run at the gunman was desperation driven by absolute fear. Are you kidding me? He had nowhere else to go and had a shotgun drawn on him.
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Again, many times this has been answered. He was not in a car. He did not have to stay on the asphalt for any reason at all.

Seriously, have none of you guys ever had to run from a cop when you were kids? If a police car is in the street, you run off the ******* street. Putt yourself in that position, and give me one solid reason why you think Arbery was too ******* stupid to leave the paved road to escape. We've all seen the pics of the street. He had a means of escape. My argument has been that he appears to have been unafraid of these fat cowards. For this, he has my respect.

I don't give a ******* **** how fast he could or was running. Running fast isn't the only way to show fear. It isn't the only way to get away and in a panicked brain he might have been considering his options. He had been running a significant period of time and could have been running the options through his head. He could have had a ******* cramp.

No, I like to think that he had nerves of steel as well, but as you said that isn't the norm for anyone. Fear is the natural reaction here. He was cornered and he fought back. For that he absolutely deserves admiration.
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Which is my point, although I disagree that he was "cornered", because, you know, of the fact that he demonstrably wasn't.
 
Question: They were originally willing to take a plea bargain on the federal charges in the expectation that they would go to federal prison instead of state. The judge cancelled that deal. Now that they have been convicted, will they get what they wanted -- to go to the federal pen -- or can the feds let the state get first dibs on them?

It would be ironic if the conviction leaves them better off than if they had won.
 
Bob001 said:
Question: They were originally willing to take a plea bargain on the federal charges in the expectation that they would go to federal prison instead of state. The judge cancelled that deal. Now that they have been convicted, will they get what they wanted -- to go to the federal pen -- or can the feds let the state get first dibs on them?

It would be ironic if the conviction leaves them better off than if they had won.
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I'm not sure if being transferred to a federal facility is an automatic thing. The original plea had this stipulated.
 
plague311 said:
It's really hard to tell. I can't imagine these guys have a lot of money left. They've gone through 2 full trials. Even if they were well off that would be a lot of money to spend. Travis was living with Ma and Pa, and talked about just starting a newer job. I can't imagine he has deep pockets to keep this going.

I'd imagine it will be appealed at some point if he can maybe get his hands on a public defender.
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Being imprisoned does tend to reduce one's income quite a bit so they almost certainly would qualify. There is a constitutional right to an attorney for the first appeal although most jurisdictions go beyond that.

Also, some fee arrangements cover an appeal. Best practice is to either make it clear up front they aren't covering an appeal or ask for a big enough retainer to cover it.
 
Thermal said:
The same as I have made so many times that it is boring me out of my mind with the repetition. Seriously, have you somehow missed the posts on this page alone?
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Which of the two completely irrelevant points do you mean?

That he could have ran faster and that he did not appear to be afraid?
 
Bob001 said:
Question: They were originally willing to take a plea bargain on the federal charges in the expectation that they would go to federal prison instead of state. The judge cancelled that deal. Now that they have been convicted, will they get what they wanted -- to go to the federal pen -- or can the feds let the state get first dibs on them?

It would be ironic if the conviction leaves them better off than if they had won.
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SuburbanTurkey said:
I'm not sure if being transferred to a federal facility is an automatic thing. The original plea had this stipulated.
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I would assume that's all going to get ironed out during the sentencing.
 
In a weird way while I am still fully onboard with the 3 attackers being brought up on hate crime charges, from a legit valid point of view it's more important that the prosecutor who buried it does. She's more emblematic of "the system."
 
Suddenly said:
I'd agree. Plus it dangers distorting the trial. They illegally killed a man. Bringing a lot of explicitly racist motivation into it risks allowing the defense to try to make it not about self -defense but about whether the motivation was racist and take the trial off the rails.
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I agree with this.

Bringing racial animus into the state trial would have been a distraction, especially as the prosecution already knew the Feds were bringing hate crime charges case against them. In fact the defence made an effort to bring up the subject of race as a distraction, albeit in a very ham-fisted way.

Of course, none of this a prevents some posters trying to deflect attention away from the way they insisted there was no evidence of racism in what the three murderers did (as if a white boy running through the neighbourhood would ever be chased down and lynched the way Arbery was) and instead, trying to focus attention on other things that we actually cannot ever know.
 
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