Cont: The Sinking of MS Estonia: Case Reopened Part V

[Mojo]

I don't think you know what a lie is. For you, it is just a cheap meaningless insult if you disagree with someone.

No, it’s saying things that you know, or ought to know, are untrue. As you have done, repeatedly and after careful corrections.

 

[Andy_Ross]

It doesn't allow a digital read but I got this from an excerpt:


Aftonbladet 29.9.1994 Google translate

Aftonbladet 10.11.1994 google translate

The one dated 29.9.1994, according to Heiwa, has this text:



It looks like the same type of excerpted text you have, so looks authentic enough.

Same journalist, Sven-Anders Eriksson.

Compare to your extract, we get (google translate):



ibid

What date are those quotes?

 

[Mojo]

Where did he say that? What a ridiculous and annoying habit you have of shoving arguments in people's mouths that they never even remotely made.

You're trying to equivocate your way around Amnesty International's discussion of the two deported Egyptians, which doesn't mention enforce disappearance in the least. Days hence, your only source for the claim that Sweden did this is the one you originally cited: Christopher Bollyn, whom you've now attempted to disavow.

Actually, after disavowing Bollyn, calling him “a likely pseudonym, and probably a Russian Pro-Iran disinformation agent”, Vixen started trying to rehabilitate him, perhaps realising that her claims about the disappearances etc. couldn’t be sourced to anyone else:

Can I ask who labelled Bollyn an 'Anti-Semite'? Being pro-Palestinian doesn't make a person a foot-stomping nazi fascist anti-Semite? I have a friend who spent time in Palestine doing charity work. The idea that she is anti-Semitic because she passionately supports the Palestinian cause, is utterly laughable. Likewise, there are plenty of books on Amazon by Jewish intellectuals who are critical of the Israeli state. Come on people, you are better than slapping two-word labels on other people without any other further explanation.

Can someone tell me what Bollyn's crimes are, other than writing a book about 9/11 claiming Mossad was behind it?

There are all kinds of theories about 9/11. Who cares if some guy has yet another theory?

 

[JayUtah]

Actually, after disavowing Bollyn, calling him “a likely pseudonym, and probably a Russian Pro-Iran disinformation agent”, Vixen started trying to rehabilitate him, perhaps realising that her claims about the disappearances etc. couldn’t be sourced to anyone else:

This is true; she did try to rehabilitate him. But as our story stands now, she wants no more to do with him. And that leaves her with no other source claiming Sweden committed enforced disappearance against two Egyptian men, and further opining that this is just how Sweden operates. Sure, she can establish that people knew what was happening to these men. Sure, she can establish that Sweden was convicted of what they actually did, which doesn't mention enforced disappearance. But the claim about Sweden's deportation of the two Egyptians amounting to enforced disappearance comes only from Bollyn and from other secondary sources that cite to Bollyn.

 

[Andy_Ross]

Here we go:

HS

https://ritarikunnat.fi/

They are a bit like Sweden's where higher class medals get a sword and even oak leaves!

So lots of medals in Finland but the one awarded in Sweden is somehow for something underhand and not for the stated reason?

Maybe the Finns got the medals they did because they are the ones that kidnapped all the officers. After all, their helicopters were there first. Entire air crews and ground crews must have known about it so it’s obvious they all had to be given something to keep them all ‘sweet’

 

[JesseCuster]

If those Estonian crew members were survivors, then are you not at all concerned about what happened to them?

Why did you ask that question in response to a post which showed that you invented the idea that "enforced disappearance" is "slang" that Amnesty International doesn't use?

You've been given a link to Amnesty's website where they discuss what enforced disappearance actually is, and it's not what you claim it is, and it's not slang for some other idea you want it to be.

You made that up to cover your ass.

 

[Marras]

Can you point out where in the above report it specifically says that Svensson was awarded a Gold Medal of Merit with Sword for the Y74 incident?

I should not have to explain to you that time goes only to one direction.

A report written on 10 October 1994 will not contain the citation text for a medal that was awarded in 1996. I think this should be self-evident.

But the report explains that Svensson did actually rescue people while on different helicopter.

 

[LondonJohn]

Why did you ask that question in response to a post which showed that you invented the idea that "enforced disappearance" is "slang" that Amnesty International doesn't use?

You've been given a link to Amnesty's website where they discuss what enforced disappearance actually is, and it's not what you claim it is, and it's not slang for some other idea you want it to be.

You made that up to cover your ass.

Yes, Vixen. Why did you lie* about Amnesty Int'l not calling "disappearances" by that name?


* Well, you either brazenly lied, or you didn't even bother to check before making that factually-incorrect claim in a horribly embarrassing attempt to defend your position. Either way, it reflects hugely badly upon you, Vixen.

 

[LondonJohn]

(Vixen's apology coming in 5...4...3...2...1....*never*)

 

[Marras]

A report written on 10 October 1994 will not contain the citation text for a medal that was awarded in 1996. I think this should be self-evident.

I got distracted while writing that and left that sentence in a bad form as technically it might be possible to have the award recommendation there and just that processing it took well over a year.

However, the actual reason why it would break causality is that the award itself was created in 1995, way after the report was written.

This, by the way is one more hole in Vixens medal to keep Svensson silent theory: he got the award in January 1996 over 15 months after the accident.

 

[erwinl]

I got distracted while writing that and left that sentence in a bad form as technically it might be possible to have the award recommendation there and just that processing it took well over a year.

However, the actual reason why it would break causality is that the award itself was created in 1995, way after the report was written.

This, by the way is one more hole in Vixens medal to keep Svensson silent theory: he got the award in January 1996 over 15 months after the accident.

Ah! But (you can hear the CT argue), that only means that this medal was especially designed for Svensson! What more to keep someone quiet, than this, I ask you!

 

[Vixen]

Actually, after disavowing Bollyn, calling him “a likely pseudonym, and probably a Russian Pro-Iran disinformation agent”, Vixen started trying to rehabilitate him, perhaps realising that her claims about the disappearances etc. couldn’t be sourced to anyone else:

Only because someone had written in huge block capitals that Bollyn was an anti-Semite, which made me wonder if it was genuine criticism or just someone out to defame him because they disagreed with his position on Israel.

 

[JayUtah]

Only because someone had written in huge block capitals that Bollyn was an anti-Semite...

Because, as you now agree, he is.

...which made me wonder if it was genuine criticism or just someone out to defame him because they disagreed with his position on Israel.

Why didn't you research the validity and reliability of your sources before advocating them, so that you would know whether the criticism was genuine? Your critics are way out ahead of you in evaluating the credibility of your sources. This should worry you. Why didn't you simply research the criticism and rebut it, if possible? Why did you go off on a wild speculative flight of fancy instead?

 

[Vixen]

I should not have to explain to you that time goes only to one direction.

A report written on 10 October 1994 will not contain the citation text for a medal that was awarded in 1996. I think this should be self-evident.

But the report explains that Svensson did actually rescue people while on different helicopter.

Nobody said he didn't.

 

[Vixen]

So lots of medals in Finland but the one awarded in Sweden is somehow for something underhand and not for the stated reason?

Maybe the Finns got the medals they did because they are the ones that kidnapped all the officers. After all, their helicopters were there first. Entire air crews and ground crews must have known about it so it’s obvious they all had to be given something to keep them all ‘sweet’

Ah, of course that is what it was. Nothing at all was Sweden*'s fault. The radio and other telecommunications, the sonar detectors, the design of the bow visor, the crew: it was all Finland's, Germany's and Estonia's fault.

However, who were the people taken to Huddinge, Stockholm, contra to the OSC's designated points?

What is interesting in that honours list is that not even the Commander of the whole archipelago unit got the highest medal in the land (which would be the Mannerheim Cross [although, to be fair, only 191 have ever been issued], followed by the Cross of Liberty) but the third order of medals, the White Rose, albeit still extremely prestigious. To get the full list, you'd need to get the paper version of the newspaper, but I would imagine the lower ranks got the Red Lion, which generally goes to life savers and for the arts, such as writers, filmmakers and that ilk, of great works.

*When I say 'Sweden', I refer to the Swedish government of the day, not the country or its people, together with the JAIC.

 

[Vixen]

Because, as you now agree, he is.



Why didn't you research the validity and reliability of your sources before advocating them, so that you would know whether the criticism was genuine? Your critics are way out ahead of you in evaluating the credibility of your sources. This should worry you. Why didn't you simply research the criticism and rebut it, if possible? Why did you go off on a wild speculative flight of fancy instead?

I did. I could find nothing on Google*. Amazon had a book of his on 9/11. There was no 'look inside' and about 250 positive reviews.

*Which makes me think it is a pseudonym.

 

[JayUtah]

I did. I could find nothing on Google*.

Strange then how others could.

 

[Vixen]

No. You just made that up, because you're desperate to be able to proclaim the existence of some sort of pattern of Sweden's "disappearing" people, as that's one of the few pieces of "evidence" you have left to prop up your laughable conspiracy theories about the sinking of the Estonia.

https://www.amnesty.org/en/what-we-do/enforced-disappearances/

Victims of enforced disappearance are people who have literally disappeared; from their loved ones and their community. They go missing when state officials (or someone acting with state consent) grabs them from the street or from their homes and then deny it, or refuse to say where they are. Sometimes disappearances may be committed by armed non-state actors, like armed opposition groups. And it is always a crime under international law.

These people are often never released and their fate remains unknown. Victims are frequently tortured and many are killed, or live in constant fear of being killed. They know their families have no idea where they are and that there is little chance anyone is coming to help them. Even if they escape death and are eventually released, the physical and psychological scars stay with them.​

So what happened to the Estonians initially listed as survivors?

 

[JayUtah]

So what happened to the Estonians initially listed as survivors?

You're dodging the point again. Amnesty International, contrary to your insinuation, did not refer to the Egyptian deportees as "disappeared," and the disparity between what they say and what you say they're saying is not merely nomenclature. You're just wrong.

 

[MarkCorrigan]

I did. I could find nothing on Google*. Amazon had a book of his on 9/11. There was no 'look inside' and about 250 positive reviews.

*Which makes me think it is a pseudonym.

How on earth did you not find anything on google? The 6th result is the ADL describing, in detail, his lunatic claims.

ETA: If you search for Christopher Bollyn anti-semite all the results expose his insanity.