Cont: The Sinking of MS Estonia: Case Reopened Part V

[Jack by the hedge]

... Svensson having already told Aftonbladet

It would be nice to see that, sometime.

 

[zooterkin]

I certainly have not denigrated any recipient award for bravery.

Whoops, here you go again:

It was nice Svensson dived in after that guy.

 

[Andy_Ross]

Rockwater in their report.

Rockwater are not a salvage company.

 

[Jack by the hedge]

It is a genuine question. I want to understand.

Since none of us was on whichever committee made the decision we can only offer opinions. What do you expect? Maybe you could start solving your puzzle by looking for the citation which went with his medal award.

But you might equally well ask why that 1950s DC-3 crew all got medals when all they did was fly around the Baltic until pounced on by a Soviet MiG-15 despite their being over international waters.

 

[Andy_Ross]

What did the Finnish aircrew get their awards for?

 

[MarkCorrigan]

Welcome back Vixen. Deal with my posts as well please.

Oh and stop deleting your own posts. It's cowardly and dishonest.

 

[Vixen]

I've been trying to find that Aftonbladet article anywhere online, but have failed. The only place it's available to view is to go and visit the National Library of Sweden in Stockholm, where it can be checked out for free.

However, their archive can be searched online for free, and you get an small amount of text back, as well as the date the article was published.

What I can say is that I cannot find the first article that Björkman claims is in the paper from the 28th. I've searched for several phrases, and cannot get a hit in any newspaper published in Sweden. Note that there is a law in Sweden that requires all printers to deliver a copy to the library.

However, I do get hit from the second article, the one published on the afternoon of the 29th.

This is what a search looks like, for "estonia" in Aftonbladet on the 28th.

So, to summarize - we can say that what Björkman claims was published in Aftonbladet on the 28th does not match what can be found in the official archive.

It doesn't allow a digital read but I got this from an excerpt:

Aftonbladet1994-09-29 The Navy's Kenneth rescued six - and even the water was waiting here, says the Navy's lifeguard Kenneth Svensson 27 After he rescued six ... flew to hospital, Kenneth waited in the water to finally be winched up ... Kenneth Svensson was a lifeguard in one of the first Vertol helicopters to depart from ... -I will never be involved in anything worse than this, said Kenneth

Aftonbladet 29.9.1994 Google translate

Aftonbladet1994-11-10 HB t .j 1 f ± fL-f JJ 1 J j rv r — ni 11 will Hill 01 .50 Kenneth 27 is woken by the phone HE SAVED SEVEN Kenneth Svensson 27 was one of the lifeguards who arrived first ... occasionally it disappears behind the wave tops When Kenneth Svensson then manages to wood ... Svensson grabs him again and manages to get him into the life raft Now is ... himself next to the raft he starts vomiting -I was completely finished says Kenneth Estonia has capsized - come to the flotilla Estonia and whose captain Esa Mäkelä is now leading the rescue operation -They had ... after his Rolex watch that he previously in Estonia put in his trouser pocket It is ... I was incredibly happy says Rolf • •• Survivor Kenneth Svensson is on .. between 25 and 30 years old Kenneth Svensson is winched down and starts talking to them. One by one

Aftonbladet 10.11.1994 google translate

The one dated 29.9.1994, according to Heiwa, has this text:

Sailor Kenneth rescues six - and waited himself in the Water
... Kenneth Svensson assisted as rescue man in one of the first three Vertol-helicopters that left from Berga naval base outside Stockholm. The time was then just after two o'clock in the night. After an hour they arrived. ... The crew discoverered immediately life rafts ... in some were humans. ... Kenneth Svensson was lowered down to one raft with three men. ... After about twenty minutes hard work he had managed to lift all three to the helicopter. ... On another capsized raft there were three more persons, frozen and apathic. Kenneth Svensson could hardly secure the rescue harness around them.

It looks like the same type of excerpted text you have, so looks authentic enough.

Same journalist, Sven-Anders Eriksson.

Compare to your extract, we get (google translate):

Aftonbladet1994-09-29 The Navy's Kenneth rescued sex - and even the water was waiting here, says the Navy's lifeguard Kenneth Svensson 27 After he rescued six ... flew to hospital, Kenneth waited in the water to finally be winched up ... Kenneth Svensson was a lifeguard in one of the first Vertol helicopters to depart from ... -I will never be involved in anything worse than this, said Kenneth

ibid

 

[Vixen]

Fact is, the medal was awarded to a specific human. Not to a helicopter.

And it was awarded for the rescues we know about. The number of rescues ascribed to a helicopter do not define which people deserve medals.

If you're not claiming that his rescues made while operating from Y74 don't count, then why are you using his medal as if it was evidence for other rescues we don't know about?

That is what you're doing, is it not? You're belabouring the point that Y64 is credited with only one rescue to try to persuade us that Svensson must have rescued more people with Y64 than are admitted to. Right? Or is that not your point, in which case, what is?

I am just trying to work out were the extra twelve survivors on the original list came from.

 

[Here_to_learn]

The one dated 29.9.1994, according to Heiwa, has this text:



It looks like the same type of excerpted text you have, so looks authentic enough.



Same journalist, Sven-Anders Eriksson.

Yes. As I said the article from the 29th seems to exist but we cannot read it online.

The one from the 28th does not exist. Meaning that we cannot trust Björkmans quotes. Also meaning that your posts relying on those quotes and the claimed times cannot be trusted.

 

[Vixen]

Whoops, here you go again:

Once again, you are wilfully reading negative things into my post which aren't there.

 

[Vixen]

Yes. As I said the article from the 29th seems to exist but we cannot read it online.

The one from the 28th does not exist. Meaning that we cannot trust Björkmans quotes. Also meaning that your posts relying on those quotes and the claimed times cannot be trusted.

It is the one dated 29.9.1994 that gives the time as 'The time was then just after two o'clock in the night. After an hour they arrived.'

These digital search engines aren't perfect. Are you able to order the original copy?

 

[JayUtah]

Are you able to order the original copy?

Are you?

 

[Here_to_learn]

It is the one dated 29.9.1994 that gives the time as 'The time was then just after two o'clock in the night. After an hour they arrived.'

Since we can't read the full article, it's impossible to see what times are mentioned. Is it the time for when he was awaken, when he arrive at Berga, when the first helicopter left, or so on. We need the full text to understand the context.

These digital search engines aren't perfect. Are you able to order the original copy?

You quoted my post in full, where I adress this. I suggest that you go back and reread what I posted. Or you could read what is says on the library page I linked to.

 

[Reformed Offlian]

I know four languages and that is enough for me. Swedish is not one of them, although I did a short course once. I can generally recognise the drift simply because it is so similar to German and even English.

Yet you apparently weren't able to work out that Aftonbladet is an evening paper from the title, and thus ended up insisting that its stories must have gone to press in the wee hours.

 

[SpitfireIX]

I'll tell you why: because 'disappeared' is slang, whereas Amnesty International is using official language.

No. You just made that up, because you're desperate to be able to proclaim the existence of some sort of pattern of Sweden's "disappearing" people, as that's one of the few pieces of "evidence" you have left to prop up your laughable conspiracy theories about the sinking of the Estonia.

https://www.amnesty.org/en/what-we-do/enforced-disappearances/

Victims of enforced disappearance are people who have literally disappeared; from their loved ones and their community. They go missing when state officials (or someone acting with state consent) grabs them from the street or from their homes and then deny it, or refuse to say where they are. Sometimes disappearances may be committed by armed non-state actors, like armed opposition groups. And it is always a crime under international law.

These people are often never released and their fate remains unknown. Victims are frequently tortured and many are killed, or live in constant fear of being killed. They know their families have no idea where they are and that there is little chance anyone is coming to help them. Even if they escape death and are eventually released, the physical and psychological scars stay with them.​

 

[JesseCuster]

Not compensate, as in your scurrilous meaning as in a 'bribe'. It is in the psychological sense the rescue he got a medal for was no longer public. To respect his feelings.

What absolute nonsense. I'm going to quote what you said exactly earlier in this thread:

6th January:

So the charade had to be kept up, as publicly, Helicopter Y64 associated with Svensson is only credited with one survivor and he needed to be kept sweet.

2nd January:

It was an award to keep him sweet for having the real reason for the medal classified.

29th December:

So Ensign gets a Gold Medal with Sword, the highest Swedish Defense Forces Medal of Merit instead, to keep him sweet.

From Merriam-Webster:

Definition of keep someone sweet
British, informal
: to be kind and friendly so that someone will do something for one later

From Collins dictionary:

If you keep someone sweet, you do something to please them in order to prevent them from becoming annoyed or dissatisfied.

You're either lying about what you've said and meant about Svensson or you're so confused that can't even remember what you repeatedly said about him, including from only a few days ago.

Do you think you're fooling anybody by telling us that your actual claim is that Svensson got his medal to "respect his feelings"? Pull the other one, it's got bells on it.

 

[Vixen]

What did the Finnish aircrew get their awards for?

Here we go:

Those who took part in the rescue work in Estonia were awarded

Backman Nils-Eric

5/5/1994 2:00 AM

TURKU - 55 people who took part in the rescue of Estonia were awarded at a ceremony organized by the Government on Friday at the Turku Guard Squadron. Among the winners were both rescue management and those involved in rescue at sea. The President of the Republic awarded Commander Raimo Tiilikainen, Commander of the Archipelago Sea Coast Guard, who commanded the rescue operations, the Commander's Badge of the White Rose of Finland. In addition, 13 Border Guard Merit Crosses, 25 Border Guard Medals and 16 Military Merit Medals were awarded. (HS)

HS

https://ritarikunnat.fi/

They are a bit like Sweden's where higher class medals get a sword and even oak leaves!

 

[Vixen]

No. You just made that up, because you're desperate to be able to proclaim the existence of some sort of pattern of Sweden's "disappearing" people, as that's one of the few pieces of "evidence" you have left to prop up your laughable conspiracy theories about the sinking of the Estonia.

https://www.amnesty.org/en/what-we-do/enforced-disappearances/

Victims of enforced disappearance are people who have literally disappeared; from their loved ones and their community. They go missing when state officials (or someone acting with state consent) grabs them from the street or from their homes and then deny it, or refuse to say where they are. Sometimes disappearances may be committed by armed non-state actors, like armed opposition groups. And it is always a crime under international law.

These people are often never released and their fate remains unknown. Victims are frequently tortured and many are killed, or live in constant fear of being killed. They know their families have no idea where they are and that there is little chance anyone is coming to help them. Even if they escape death and are eventually released, the physical and psychological scars stay with them.​

If those Estonian crew members were survivors, then are you not at all concerned about what happened to them?

 

[SpitfireIX]

If those Estonian crew members were survivors, then are you not at all concerned about what happened to them?

Begging the question. I would be concerned if there were any credible evidence that they had survived, but there is none.

ETA: Also unresponsive to my point.

 

[JayUtah]

If those Estonian crew members were survivors, then are you not at all concerned about what happened to them?

Where did he say that? What a ridiculous and annoying habit you have of shoving arguments in people's mouths that they never even remotely made.

You're trying to equivocate your way around Amnesty International's discussion of the two deported Egyptians, which doesn't mention enforce disappearance in the least. Days hence, your only source for the claim that Sweden did this is the one you originally cited: Christopher Bollyn, whom you've now attempted to disavow.