Cont: The Sinking of MS Estonia: Case Reopened Part V

[BazBear]

I believe Baltic Storm is banned in Sweden.

Wrong again.

https://variety.com/2004/film/reviews/baltic-storm-1200534380/

The real-life 1994 sinking of the ferry M/S Estonia in the Baltic Sea, which claimed 852 lives, has been turned into a standard conspiracy thriller in English-lingo German feature “Baltic Storm.” Controversial during production, pic finally opened in a couple of Swedish cinemas in February, to negative reviews and lackluster B.O., paralleling its opening in Germany last October. For Anglo markets, the only hook is the presence of names like Greta Scacchi and Donald Sutherland, with TV its likeliest avenue.

 

[MarkCorrigan]

They were infiltrated by Ray Hill.

Nope. Ray Hill never infiltrated Combat 18, and even if he had that doesn't in any way shape or form answer my question.

Stop obfuscating, you're terrible at it and it's highly dishonest.

 

[junkshop]

...One such example is MI5 setting up Combat-18.

They were infiltrated by Ray Hill.

The latter does not equal the former. Do you accept that your first claim was untrue, and retract it?

 

[abaddon]

But Sweden did not disappear them, which is your claim, remember?

Oh you have to pay attention. Tomorrow the claims will be entirely different. It matters not to the proponent.

 

[Reformed Offlian]

The Estonian government officials believes the Estonians as originally listed to be 'missing':

This is just a recommendation by a commission. How did the decision makers actually respond?

 

[Reformed Offlian]

Can you remember how you found out Elvis had died? Name and date of the media.

No one is quizzing you to see what you can remember off the top of your head. Your audience's lack of trust in your offhand recollections is part of the issue.

The other posters here already have a good idea where you got the idea that the Egyptians deported by Sweden in 2002 were disappeared; you inadvertently told us yourself. You don't seem to appreciate how recognizable certain CT canards are to people used to confronting them. It's up to you to prove otherwise at this point.

Either you have a non-Bollyn-adjacent source supporting your claim that the Egyptian's deportations were a case of enforced disappearance or you don't.

If you do, pray do tell. If you don't, admit it so that we can put this toxic talking point in the bin with all the other CT trash.

 

[Reformed Offlian]

Investigative journalists often get smeared in order to discredit them for finding out the truth.

Look at scientist Dr David Kelly. Dared to say there were no WMD's.

Dr. Kelly wasn't an investigative journalist. The journalist who covered him, Andrew Gilligan, remained a successful and respected, if sometimes controversial, member of his profession.

 

[Axxman300]

You forget, she was a high profile journalist privy to insider information.

You forget that nobody with an important job willingly talks to journalists unless they need to spin something.

You also forget she has never proven any of her charges about the Estonia being sunk by the Russians. She's not the first journalist to be disgraced by their own hubris.

 

[Marras]

The Swedes have the cheek to call Utö, Finska Utö as though theirs is the real one.

By the way, this post is yet again a good example of Vixen's need to denigrate Sweden and the Swedish.

The name "Utö" is Swedish and it means simply "Outer Island". There are at least two Utös in Finland (and I strongly suspect there are more). I suspect that there are several in Sweden in addition to the most famous one next to Stockholm but haven't checked. They are all place names and there's absolutely no reason to consider any of them "the real one". They all are real places with that name. The Finnish island has a Swedish name because it is in an area that has been populated by Swedish-speaking people since before the start of recorded history. (Which starts quite late in Finland).

The documented history of the more famous Finnish Utö starts at 1540s. There are claims that a pile of rocks was built there as a sea sign already in the 9th century, but I personally find that claim a bit dubious. I didn't go digging through the sources to see who proposed that, when, why, and based on what evidence. Quite a few internet sites mention it as an established fact. It may be true, but I need some convincing before I accept that.

On the other hand, the Utö next to Stockholm has documented history going to several hundreds of years earlier. It is mentioned by that name in the Danish Itinerary that was written in the 13th century (probably sometime between 1240-90). The itinerary doesn't mention the Finnish Utö and we shouldn't really expect it to mention it because the sailing route that it describes goes well North of the island, from Kökar to Aspö.

The Stockholm Utö was mentioned earlier than the Finnish one, it got permanent population before the Finnish one, and it now has far more inhabitants than the Finnish Utö. I don't see any reason why it would be less "real" than the Finnish one.

 

[Jack by the hedge]

Investigative journalists often get smeared in order to discredit them for finding out the truth.



Look at scientist Dr David Kelly. Dared to say there were no WMD's.

Very bad example. Kelly killed himself after a journalist essentially threw him under the bus as the source of a leak that the government's view on WMDs was baseless.

 

[Mojo]

An Estonian radio station claims to have interviewed Svensson, who seemed only too eager to let the world know, and that he said in the interview that he had rescued Avo Piht. He even said Piht came from Hiumaa, an island off Estonia, which surely, only Piht himself could have told him that.

This really needs a citation or link, but it might be a bit more credible if it was a named Estonian radio station, rather than just one that goes to a different school.

Radio Kuku, 28.9.1994.

What is your source for this?

 

[Mojo]

The Estonian government officials believes the Estonians as originally listed to be 'missing':

Note the word “allegedly”.

 

[junkshop]

...One such example is MI5 setting up Combat-18.

They were infiltrated by Ray Hill.

The latter does not equal the former. Do you accept that your first claim was untrue, and retract it?

Nope. Ray Hill never infiltrated Combat 18...

My apologies Vixen,
I see now that both statements are equal. They are equally untrue. Do you accept that both of your claims are untrue, and retract them?



I won't hold my breath.

 

[Vixen]

So where is her evidence to support the claims?
How do you know she was ‘privy to insider information’?

Do you really think the German government collaborated with Sweden to suppress a story and seize materials relating to the Estonia officers kidnapping?

Do you really think aircrew flight logs list names of people rescued and she had access to these logs on a Swedish air base?

There are plenty of whistleblowers.

Germany never signed the treaty.

Intelligence agencies do cooperate with each other if a request is made.

 

[Marras]

There are plenty of whistleblowers.

Germany never signed the treaty.

Intelligence agencies do cooperate with each other if a request is made.

According to the ever unreliable Wikipedia five German citizens died in Estonia.

Why did the German intelligence agencies agree to help Sweden in covering up their murder?

 

[zooterkin]

There are plenty of whistleblowers.

Germany never signed the treaty.

Intelligence agencies do cooperate with each other if a request is made.

No evidence, then.

 

[Jack by the hedge]

The Estonian government officials believes the Estonians as originally listed to be 'missing':

That doesn't mean they believe them to be alive. It doesn't even mean they suspect they survived the sinking. At best it means they're not declaring them to be presumed dead.

 

[Vixen]

By the way, this post is yet again a good example of Vixen's need to denigrate Sweden and the Swedish.

The name "Utö" is Swedish and it means simply "Outer Island". There are at least two Utös in Finland (and I strongly suspect there are more). I suspect that there are several in Sweden in addition to the most famous one next to Stockholm but haven't checked. They are all place names and there's absolutely no reason to consider any of them "the real one". They all are real places with that name. The Finnish island has a Swedish name because it is in an area that has been populated by Swedish-speaking people since before the start of recorded history. (Which starts quite late in Finland).

The documented history of the more famous Finnish Utö starts at 1540s. There are claims that a pile of rocks was built there as a sea sign already in the 9th century, but I personally find that claim a bit dubious. I didn't go digging through the sources to see who proposed that, when, why, and based on what evidence. Quite a few internet sites mention it as an established fact. It may be true, but I need some convincing before I accept that.

On the other hand, the Utö next to Stockholm has documented history going to several hundreds of years earlier. It is mentioned by that name in the Danish Itinerary that was written in the 13th century (probably sometime between 1240-90). The itinerary doesn't mention the Finnish Utö and we shouldn't really expect it to mention it because the sailing route that it describes goes well North of the island, from Kökar to Aspö.

The Stockholm Utö was mentioned earlier than the Finnish one, it got permanent population before the Finnish one, and it now has far more inhabitants than the Finnish Utö. I don't see any reason why it would be less "real" than the Finnish one.

Thanks for the information. However, I was being tongue-in-cheek. My fifth great grandmother was a listed Swedish noble. Thus, I have zero motivation to 'denigrate Sweden and the Swedish'. Your ad hominem claim is a preposterous one, based on zero justification.

 

[Vixen]

My apologies Vixen,
I see now that both statements are equal. They are equally untrue. Do you accept that both of your claims are untrue, and retract them?



I won't hold my breath.

You obviously do not know the story and I am not going to enlighten you as it has little to do with this topic, other than as an example for Mark Corrigan, who claims to have never heard of 'disinformation' or how it works and who thus asked for one.

 

[Vixen]

According to the ever unreliable Wikipedia five German citizens died in Estonia.

Why did the German intelligence agencies agree to help Sweden in covering up their murder?

My theory is that the West (Bildt, Clinton, et al) feared that a face-off with Russia would see Russian troops using it as an excuse to reinvade Estonia. Sensitive political situation. Sweden for the CIA smuiggling Russian state secrets, the Russians warning the intelligence agencies to stop doing it and then exacting ruthless revenge when ignored. Why else would Sweden immediately cover it up, and th e UK sign a Baltic treaty, when it is nowhere near the Baltic.

Note how Russia exhumed every single one of the dead 97 Russian sailors in the Kursk disaster, at a much deeper and more difficult location than Estonia.