Cont: The Sinking of MS Estonia: Case Reopened Part V

[Steve]

There is a popular quote, not sure by who, along the lines of "If you always tell the truth you will never have to keep your story straight". There is someone in this thread who would do well to take those words to heart.

 

[Mojo]

For the record, Vixen's lying about never having seen or used Bollyn's work before.

She cited Bollyn, after much prodding from me and others about her sources, in post #2966 of the very first thread of this topic.

http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showpost.php?p=13584360&postcount=2966

That’s quite astonishing. If Vixen had just posted the link we’d never have known where she got it!

 

[Reformed Offlian]

That’s quite astonishing. If Vixen had just posted the link we’d never have known where she got it!

You mean the stuff from Bjorkman? Indeed. She was already on record having cited Bjorkman, so you'd think she wouldn't have a problem doing it again. Unless she were ashamed of her sources or something.

 

[Steve]

You mean the stuff from Bjorkman? Indeed. She was already on record having cited Bjorkman, so you'd think she wouldn't have a problem doing it again. Unless she were ashamed of her sources or something.

She was quite happy with the wild speculations and CT's of her source(s) until she realized that everyone else already knew what total whackos they are. Then the distancing dance, with the requisite lies, became necessary.

 

[Mojo]

You mean the stuff from Bjorkman?

No, she seems to have got it from Bollyn.

 

[GlennB]

For the record, Vixen's lying ...

(Respectfully removed redundant words)

 

[Reformed Offlian]

An Estonian radio station claims to have interviewed Svensson, who seemed only too eager to let the world know, and that he said in the interview that he had rescued Avo Piht. He even said Piht came from Hiumaa, an island off Estonia, which surely, only Piht himself could have told him that.

What a non-sensical inference, even assuming the rest of the story is true.

I know that Beethoven was born in Bonn, Germany. Does that mean I must have spoken to him?

Or is it some kind of Estonian cultural thing to keep one's birthplace secret, like "true names"? Do birthplaces have magical powers in Estonian folklore or something?

 

[Marras]

What a non-sensical inference, even assuming the rest of the story is true.

No need to assume, the story is not true.

But I can guarantee to you that a Swedish rescue man will not know the birthplaces of captains of random ships sailing across the Baltic Sea.

So, if the story was true, it would be evidence of recent contact between the two men.

But it is not true, because Vixen is lying once again.

 

[Vixen]

Where to start?

Why do you think the on scene commander has any jurisdiction over military assets?

Why do you think it would be a good idea to make the helicopter fly in the opposite direction to it's base, drop off survivors then attempt to refuel to then return to it's own base rather than save a lot of time getting it fixed and back in to the rescue?

Why do you think the rescue man has any say in where the helicopter goes?

Why do you think a someone who was no longer on the helicopter would have any say in where it went?

Helicopter Y 65 also flew direct to it's base and dropped off a survivor as it passed Stockholm.

Wait a minute. The MRCC has authoritative powers. The MRCC Turku designated Silja Europa Captain the On Scene Commander. Whilst the helicopters from Berga might have been Swedish Defence Forces helicopters, that would not give them the right to do their own thing. Captain Mäkela had absolute authority. A restriction was put in place as to how many aircraft could be in that particular region, for example. The whole idea was to coordinate rescue.

 

[Vixen]

Could you please elaborate a little here:

Who was the person who got the medal after disobeying a command from the person in official command of them?

And what was the command?

From JAIC:

7.1 Summary of the operation

The ESTONIA sank in international waters in Finland's Search and Rescue Region (SRR), in its Archipelago Sea maritime SRR under the responsibility of the Maritime Rescue Co-ordination Centre (MRCC) in Turku. Consequently Finland was responsible for the overall co-ordination of the Search and Rescue (SAR) operation.

7.1


<snip>

As well as in the SAR Convention, the tasks of an MRCC are laid down in the IMO Search and Rescue Manual and in national provisions. Some of their main tasks are summarised below:

An MRCC prepares detailed plans for conduct of SAR operations in its own area. Each MRCC and MRSC maintains up-to-date information relevant to SAR operations in its area.

An MRCC should be in a constant state of operational readiness.

When an MRCC receives a distress signal, it must establish the facts of the situation, so as to determine the state of emergency and decide on the extent of the operation required.

The MRCC initiates and co-ordinates the operation through the available rescue units in accordance with a plan of action.

The MRCC notifies the owner of the vessel and the appropriate authorities of the operations being launched. Other MRCC’s and MRSC’s and rescue units which may be concerned must also be notified and kept informed of developments.

When the emergency no longer exists, or further search seems useless, the MRCC terminates the operation and notifies the authorities and individuals who had previously been informed.

The sphere of authority of the MRCC in each country is established by national provisions.

ibid

<snip>

At 0205 hrs MRCC Turku appointed the master On-Scene Commander (OSC). The SILJA EUROPA arrived at the scene at 0230 hrs.

<snip>

Planning of action

At 0325 hrs the deputy commander of the rescue operation determined as the principle for the use of the helicopters that they would retrieve people from the sea and from the rafts and take them to the nearest passenger ferries. This was intended to optimise use of the helicopters and minimize transfer flights.

<snip>

When it became clear that not all the rescued survivors could be carried to the vessels, MRCC Turku gave instructions to bring them to Utö as necessary The reasons were that the flight time would be shorter and the risk of hypothermia less. Utö thus became the most important assembly point for survivors, of whom the helicopters brought 24 to the fortress for transfer to hospital care. The fortress personnel, guided by nurses, attended to the survivors' treatment. The medical team arrived at Utö at about 0650 hrs.

The use of Utö as an assembly point became more difficult by 0630 hrs when the supply of helicopter fuel ran out. Helicopters were advised to fly to Nauvo, Turku or Hanko for refuelling. MRCC Turku ordered hospitals to prepare to receive patients, and ground transport was organised from the refuelling sites to the hospitals. Helicopters arriving in Turku for refuelling landed first at the Turku University Central Hospital landing site to leave the survivors before proceeding to the base for refuelling.

7.5.4

So you see, instructions were explicit.

 

[zooterkin]

Wait a minute. The MRCC has authoritative powers. The MRCC Turku designated Silja Europa Captain the On Scene Commander. Whilst the helicopters from Berga might have been Swedish Defence Forces helicopters, that would not give them the right to do their own thing. Captain Mäkela had absolute authority. A restriction was put in place as to how many aircraft could be in that particular region, for example. The whole idea was to coordinate rescue.

Does he? Please provide a citation showing the authority the OSC has.

 

[Vixen]

This really needs a citation or link, but it might be a bit more credible if it was a named Estonian radio station, rather than just one that goes to a different school.

Radio Kuku, 28.9.1994.

 

[Vixen]

Which other 'now missing Estonian'?

There are many hundreds of missing people.

That was tongue in cheek. However, as you have seen from the OSC commands, above, no Swedish helicopter had the right to just take survivors straight to Huddinge, Stockholm, contrary to the orders.

 

[Mojo]

Radio Kuku, 28.9.1994.

How do you know?

 

[Vixen]

Why would the on scene commander object to a damaged helicopter dropping off survivors at a hospital on it's direct route for repair and refuel?

There were problems with fuel availability throughout the day, any way to avoid using the restricted supplies at Utö, Nauvo, Turku and Hanko would have been welcomed.

Wouldn't he want it repaired, re-crewed, fueled and back in to the rescue as soon as possible?

What does she think the duties and responsibilities of the on scene commander were?

What authority over Swedish military helicopter does she think the captain of a Finnish ferry would actually have?

There is such a thing as jurisdiction.

Anyway, by your own account there was no urgency at MRCC Stockholm as you think it quite normal for a rescue helicopter to get there two hours later.

 

[Marras]

From JAIC:

Lots of non-answer snipped.

My first question was:

Who was the person who got the medal after disobeying a command from the person in official command of them?

Please answer this.

 

[Jack by the hedge]

Wait a minute. The MRCC has authoritative powers. The MRCC Turku designated Silja Europa Captain the On Scene Commander. Whilst the helicopters from Berga might have been Swedish Defence Forces helicopters, that would not give them the right to do their own thing. Captain Mäkela had absolute authority. A restriction was put in place as to how many aircraft could be in that particular region, for example. The whole idea was to coordinate rescue.

As already belaboured, there was no reason to think any of the helicopters defied OSC instructions as everything they did makes sense. If you have any evidence the OSC instructed them to make pointless trips and they refused then by all means present it.

 

[Vixen]

Obviously the on scene commander is in on the conspiracy too.

The now retired OSC Esa Mäkela is sceptical of the JAIC conclusion. Likewise, the Captain of Mariella in his interview when asked how many his ship rescued stated 'about 40' (so much for the JAIC figure of 15 (or was it 17). This is why Finland is one of the least corrupt countries in the world, because people state what they really think and there is nothing you can do about it.

 

[Vixen]

I did. Which is why I know you did not answer my question. The question was: where did you get the idea that the case with the Egyptians was an incident of enforced disappearance?



blah blah blah

You said lots of things. Where you got your notions that the case involving the two Egyptians involved enforce disappearance was not one of them.

You've not given your audience any reason to believe you arrived at that conclusion on your own by a cogent independent thought process, so the obvious surmise is that you simply borrowed the conclusion from a source. I want to know what that source was, if not Bollyn.

Here is a Finnish newspaper for a start: MV Lehti

Airport documents obtained by him reveal that at the same time as the disappearances, a private plane owned by the CIA, owned by Lars Magnusson , took to the air, destined for Washington.

According to eyewitnesses, in addition to the crew, nine unidentified people had boarded the plane. Similar incidents have been linked to the alleged CIA abduction of two Egyptian men suspected of terrorism in the early 2000s.

 

[Vixen]

You are confused.

Y74 did not return with a defective winch. Y64, Y65 and Y69 had winch failures.

Y74 did not try to land on a ferry as the OSC's original plan to do that had already been abandoned as too dangerous in the conditions.

Nor did it fly to Utö as that was chosen as the best place to drop off in Sweden if the helicopter was immediately returning to the search area. It was not. It was going to pick up fresh crew. Going to Utö would have wasted time.

You accuse them of a "pathetic excuse and a likely story" based on your woefully poor grasp of the facts.

Plus of course Svensson was not the pilot so did not control where Y64 or Y74 flew and so could not have been disobeying OSC's instructions in that regard.

That is not how SAR or military operations work. Each person does not do his or her own thing nor decide that following instructions 'wastes time' so 'I've decided off my own bat to do something other than what was instructed'.