Cont: The Sinking of MS Estonia: Case Re-opened Part IV

[LondonJohn]

But if you don't rescue them they die anyway.

Also, there would be no way to know if they got off the ship, or had already expired in the freezing waters.

Yes: I referenced this a few pages ago..... with (predictably) no response.

One of the very many ways in which Vixen's preposterous CT falls flat on its face at the first hurdle is just this: how the hell could Svennson's fantastical "super-secret special forces" unit have possibly been able to know whether or not these crewmembers a) had died in the wreckage, b) had been cast into the sea and drowned, or c) had successfully deployed into a life raft but hadn't been spotted by this mythical helicopter crew.

And if the last (of these three), would Vixen suggest that Svensson and his secret buddies were getting Svensson winched down onto every life raft as they came across each one, looking to see if any of the crewmembers to be "disappeared" were in that particular life raft, then - if none of these crewmembers was present - having Svensson tell the life raft occupants something along the lines of "Hold tight! Someone will be along to save you before too long - we can't save you right now because we have a separate operation to undertake first".

The whole thing is a ludicrous, laughable house of cards. Vixen has no idea what she's talking about.

 

[Andy_Ross]

I couldn't find the book you mentioned as being available.

However, I have got the Härkätie board game. Top that.

Well, a board game has to trump any other source.

 

[Andy_Ross]

Back in the days of open lifeboats launched from davits I would rather take my chances with a life raft.

Now, modern, free fall, closed boats are a different thing.

 

[LondonJohn]

But your claim is that a sooper sekrit helicopter mission was mounted, no public anything was held and the officers were simply "disappeared". You are also claiming that it was a priority to return the officers for trial.

You cannot have it both ways.

Oh, Vixen can (in her head) have it every which way but Sunday, it would appear. So long as it's somehow in support of her overall CT-batcrap thesis.

Which is only the latest in a litany of reasons why Vixen's contributions to this thread have consistently exhibited ignorance, lies and sustained intellectual dishonesty. Frankly, her "contributions" to this thread can by now safely be disregarded in their entirety: not one of them counts as a sincere, genuine, well-informed participation in the debate. At this point, her posts are nothing more than a darkly comical side-show, undeserving of engagement or the effort of a response (other than as a car-crash-observation pursuit....)

 

[abaddon]

Yes: I referenced this a few pages ago..... with (predictably) no response.

One of the very many ways in which Vixen's preposterous CT falls flat on its face at the first hurdle is just this: how the hell could Svennson's fantastical "super-secret special forces" unit have possibly been able to know whether or not these crewmembers a) had died in the wreckage, b) had been cast into the sea and drowned, or c) had successfully deployed into a life raft but hadn't been spotted by this mythical helicopter crew.

And if the last (of these three), would Vixen suggest that Svensson and his secret buddies were getting Svensson winched down onto every life raft as they came across each one, looking to see if any of the crewmembers to be "disappeared" were in that particular life raft, then - if none of these crewmembers was present - having Svensson tell the life raft occupants something along the lines of "Hold tight! Someone will be along to save you before too long - we can't save you right now because we have a separate operation to undertake first".

The whole thing is a ludicrous, laughable house of cards. Vixen has no idea what she's talking about.

See, this is one of the things I find incomprehensible. Somehow, Vixen cannot understand that Svensson transferred from Y64 to Y74. That he rescued 1 while on board Y64. Winch breaks so Y64 is RTB for repair. Svensson is left in the sea. Y74 rocks up and rescues him. Moberg gets injured and Svensson steps in and rescues 6 more (plus one corpse).

Y64 and Y74 are helicopters, not individuals. Vixen cannot understand this because...wtf?

Also, think about it from Svenssons perspective. He was left in the sea by Y64 because they had no working winch at that point. Y74 plucked him from the sea. What did he do at that point? Kept saving people. That's what he did. How is that not heroic?

 

[abaddon]

Well, what's been going on in this thread is a perfect illustration of the maxim that it's both pointless and unproductive to attempt to argue with opinions which are ku-ku-krayzeee.

But apparently it is definitely not a CT. Of course not. Swedish subs, torpedoes, limpet mines, cesium solvents, complicit crew, spetsnaz, CIA, disappeared crew, who knows what else, all covered up by three governments, but definitely not a CT.

 

[Mojo]

They were disappeared as per the definition set out in Rome 1998 (Criminal Law Treaty). This was upheld by a court of law and the European Court of Human Rights.

Can you link to the ECHR decision, please?

Here’s the court’s database: https://hudoc.echr.coe.int/eng

 

[Mojo]

Yes, and if that is what has happened it breaches the Rome convention.

It can't have breached the Rome Convention because the Convention didn't exist.

Note that Vixen originally claimed that the Rome Statute was dated 1988, and is to this day unable to get its title correct.

 

[whoanellie]

Can you link to the ECHR decision, please?

Here’s the court’s database: https://hudoc.echr.coe.int/eng

Edited by Agatha: 

Edited to remove breach of rule 11

From what I can tell, no case concerning the 2 Egyptians deported from Sweden was ever brought before the ECHR. If true, that would be par for the course for Vixen.
(There was a case but it was not before the ECHR)

 

[Axxman300]

That is a very silly notion. History tells us that there is a preference in bringing people to justice before topping them.

No, history show the opposite.

Just look at countries that have assassination teams and how they are used. Israel could have waxed Adolf Eichmann, but they didn't - they arrested him, and later executed him.

The Russians tried to kill Alexei Navalny, but ended up arresting him once the spotlight was on.

On the other hand, both countries demonstrate that if they want someone dead, they die. If they want to arrest them, they make the arrest.

And when was the last time Sweden assassinated anyone?

 

[Mojo]

See, this is one of the things I find incomprehensible. Somehow, Vixen cannot understand that Svensson transferred from Y64 to Y74. That he rescued 1 while on board Y64. Winch breaks so Y64 is RTB for repair. Svensson is left in the sea. Y74 rocks up and rescues him. Moberg gets injured and Svensson steps in and rescues 6 more (plus one corpse).

Y64 and Y74 are helicopters, not individuals. Vixen cannot understand this because...wtf?

Vixen cannot understand it because it conflicts with her narrative.

 

[Axxman300]

You mean a bit like the Stone Age - Bronze Age - Iron Age - Combware Culture - Neolithic - Elizabethan - Victorian - WWII - Vietnam - 1990's - er, Simpsons?

I mean like applying post-911 policies to a pre-911 world.

Remember the days when the US backed away from attacking bin Laden due to the risk of civilian casualties? And how today we can launch a Hellfire missile at a car load of kids without remorse? Or how, after a number of Islamic terrorist attacks in London, Paris, and Belgium those countries now proactively hunt for trouble?

Europe and the US do things today that would have been shocking in 1994.

And you have yet to demonstrate Sweden's history of taking such extreme actions you insist happened. Pointing to an extradition in 2002 is stupid.

 

[junkshop]

If I remember correctly he hated Germans vehemently because of the war, so maybe one can't call him 'a Nazi', as it were.

No one here has, Vixen. The closest thing to that was your calling him a "notorious far right extremist".

Well, you called Norris McWhirter a "notorious far right extremist" and then edited in Moore's name when it was pointed that McWhirter wasn't, as you had claimed, an astronomer.

I've got to say though, I'm loving your "If I remember correctly he hated Germans..." bit. As if it isn't painfully obvious that you've just panic cribbed from his Wikipedia page.

 

[Axxman300]

I have seen that report. The fact the bow visor came off does not mean anything until it has been investigated. The question is how would Bildt/Lehtola know before the ship was found and at that stage,

You have yet to prove Bildt knew before the ship was found.

 

[Andy_Ross]

No, history show the opposite.

Just look at countries that have assassination teams and how they are used. Israel could have waxed Adolf Eichmann, but they didn't - they arrested him, and later executed him.

The Russians tried to kill Alexei Navalny, but ended up arresting him once the spotlight was on.

On the other hand, both countries demonstrate that if they want someone dead, they die. If they want to arrest them, they make the arrest.

And when was the last time Sweden assassinated anyone?

I think the claim is the Swedes gave them to the CIA because they are US puppets or something.

 

[Jack by the hedge]

Well, they were part of the conspiracy to sink it don't forget, they wouldn't broadcast that they had blown their own ship up!

Of course if the bridge crew had been part of a conspiracy to sink the ship, they wouldn't have broadcast a Mayday at all. They would just have joined the rest of the officers aboard the lifeboat Posh Spice and let the other thousand drown. Doubtless their posh lifeboat would have been met by a submarine from <insert name here>.

 

[Vixen]

Then you’ll be able to link to it on HUDOC.

Ahmed Hussein Mustafa Kamil Agiza v. Sweden, CAT/C/34/D/233/2003, UN Committee Against Torture (CAT), 24 May 2005, available at

14. The Committee against Torture, acting under article 22, paragraph 7, of the Convention against Torture and Other Cruel, Inhuman or Degrading Treatment or Punishment, decides that the facts before it constitute breaches by the State party of articles 3 and 22 of the Convention.

UNHCR


Mohammed Alzery v. Sweden, Communication No. 1416/2005, U.N. Doc. CCPR/C/88/D/1416/2005 (2006).

11.2 The Committee notes at the outset that, with respect to a number of claims, the State party concedes violations of the Covenant or the Optional Protocol, on the basis of parallel findings of the Committee against Torture in the case of Agiza v Sweden made with respect to substantially similar provisions of the Convention against Torture. While such a concession is relevant to the Committee's determination, it must nevertheless independently ascertain that in the circumstances of the case violations of the relevant provisions of the Covenant or the Optional Protocol occurred.

ECHR
Human Rights Library

In July 2008 and September 19, 2008, they were each awarded 3 million SEK ($380,000) in damages in a settlement with the Swedish ministry of justice.

wiki

 

[Vixen]

Literally no one, or just certain people? Their attorneys were notified 48 hours after the deportation had occurred -- not exactly a "long time." You seem to be confusing a lack of media attention with literal isolation.



How I feel or would feel is irrelevant to whether an action satisfies the elements of a crime.



Whether a person has friends is irrelevant to whether deportation is equivalent to enforced disappearance. You're so very determined to make those concepts seem equivalent. And so very determined that Sweden should be the enemy. You're dancing through everything but the facts.

It is a sad world when people think it is normal to disappear people.

 

[Vixen]

Yes: I referenced this a few pages ago..... with (predictably) no response.

One of the very many ways in which Vixen's preposterous CT falls flat on its face at the first hurdle is just this: how the hell could Svennson's fantastical "super-secret special forces" unit have possibly been able to know whether or not these crewmembers a) had died in the wreckage, b) had been cast into the sea and drowned, or c) had successfully deployed into a life raft but hadn't been spotted by this mythical helicopter crew.

And if the last (of these three), would Vixen suggest that Svensson and his secret buddies were getting Svensson winched down onto every life raft as they came across each one, looking to see if any of the crewmembers to be "disappeared" were in that particular life raft, then - if none of these crewmembers was present - having Svensson tell the life raft occupants something along the lines of "Hold tight! Someone will be along to save you before too long - we can't save you right now because we have a separate operation to undertake first".

The whole thing is a ludicrous, laughable house of cards. Vixen has no idea what she's talking about.

What a very stupid comment. All that needs to be done is rescue them first, identify later.

 

[JayUtah]

It is a sad world when people think it is normal to disappear people.

Literally no one is making that claim. And your post has literally nothing to do with anything I said. As usual, you're trying to substitute emotional pearl-clutching for fact.