Cont: The Sinking of MS Estonia: Case Re-opened Part IV

[Andy_Ross]

That is not how tension works. The atlantic lock was added as an accessory lock to make people feel safer when sailing, erm, the Atlantic, hence its name. Whilst it takes some of the tension of the side locks, it doesn't really affect them if it wasn't there at all. we know that the bolt was faulty on the Estonia anyway.

So, a strong wave breaking off the Atlantic lock wouldn't cause the bow visor to lift up necessarily and in any case Hoffmeister, who is an expert on machine tools, found the stress fracture and corrosion levels in the side locks would have caused them to break first.

What is your evidence for any of this?

 

[Vixen]

How would he find the 'senior crew'?

How would he know they were even there to find and not at the bottom of the sea?

Er, ask them...?

 

[Jack by the hedge]

The aim would be to interrogate them to clarify what exactly happened on that ship.

That's normal. Kidnapping and disappearing them is abnormal.

Pretending it's easy to locate them by magic at night in the sea in a storm is crazy talk.

 

[Jack by the hedge]

They were not officers, they were crew.

They were not disappeared. They were questioned.

 

[Jack by the hedge]

Er, ask them...?

And throw them back if they were just passengers?

 

[Vixen]

You think the psychic Bildt told a helicopter crew to "go find a posh life boat, it'll be easy"? Did they laugh in his face in your imagination too?

Yes, I do think it's nuts to tell a rescue crew to go after specific people during a desperate multi-national rescue effort. I think that's completely unhinged. Would you tell them to throw back everyone they rescued who turned out not to be an officer?

You rescue people and then identify them.

You ask for the name and date of birth.

You have been shown their photographs.

 

[zooterkin]

The Defence Forces work on a 'need to know' basis so if you tell 'Agent Y64'

Agent Y64 the helicopter?

 

[Vixen]

How? How do they fish out only senior crew? How do they locate senior crew? It makes not a scrap of sense.

Imagine you are a border guard. You will have been told in advance who to look for and who to stop.

 

[Jack by the hedge]

You rescue people and then identify them.



You ask for the name and date of birth.



You have been shown their photographs.

And you throw them back until you get the right ones, yes?

 

[LondonJohn]

That is not how tension works. The atlantic lock was added as an accessory lock to make people feel safer when sailing, erm, the Atlantic, hence its name. Whilst it takes some of the tension of the side locks, it doesn't really affect them if it wasn't there at all. we know that the bolt was faulty on the Estonia anyway.

So, a strong wave breaking off the Atlantic lock wouldn't cause the bow visor to lift up necessarily and in any case Hoffmeister, who is an expert on machine tools, found the stress fracture and corrosion levels in the side locks would have caused them to break first.

Please, please stop trying to lecture people, when you yourself have next to no understanding/expertise related to the subject under discussion.

"To make people feel safer"? Pitiful, pulled straight out of your fundament, and entirely incorrect.

(And pray tell us: how would an expertise in machine tools come in handy when examining failure modes of metal parts?)

 

[Jack by the hedge]

Imagine you are a border guard. You will have been told in advance who to look for and who to stop.

The survivors form an orderly queue in the sea and you fish them out one by one, throwing them back to drown until you get the ones you want.

Is there any detail of this that strikes you as unlikely?

 

[MarkCorrigan]

Well Vixen, why are you ignoring me again? How terribly rude of you.

 

[zooterkin]

Imagine you are a border guard. You will have been told in advance who to look for and who to stop.

Can you see any possible differences between the actions needed by a border guard and a helicopter crew over the sea during a storm at night?

 

[Andy_Ross]

How? How do they fish out only senior crew? How do they locate senior crew? It makes not a scrap of sense.

they look for the 'posh lifeboat' apparently

Something like this

 

[LondonJohn]

And you throw them back until you get the right ones, yes?

Like fishermen throwing undersized lobsters back into the sea....

Vixen's claim in this matter is right up there with her overall standard.

 

[Vixen]

How do you know any of this? Are you claiming expertise, or will you be linking to an expert?

I took the trouble to read Dr.-Ing. Hans-Werner Hoffmeister's report.

 

[Andy_Ross]

KSI officers are allowed to set up front companies and join criminal gangs, if it is in the course of their work.

How is that breaking the law?

What is your evidence for this?

 

[Andy_Ross]

The aim would be to interrogate them to clarify what exactly happened on that ship.

So why does this need a super secret ninja helicopter crewed by secret Frogmen when they could just be questioned when brought ashore anyway?

 

[Jack by the hedge]

they look for the 'posh lifeboat' apparently



Something like this



[qimg]https://i.imgur.com/7q7YJNrm.jpg[/qimg]

Those women aren't in uniform. Chuck 'em back in. Must be one of the other posh lifeboats. Grr. Bildt said this would be easy. If we don't all get ******* medals I'm going to scream in his face.

 

[Vixen]

Are you claiming to be an expert in structural dynamics?



Asked and answered.

Do you believe Hoffmeister was right about the failure sequence, and that JAIC was wrong about the failure sequence?

I think that he should have had his report taken seriously. The JAIC is presumed neutral, so why shouldn't it have listened to the shipbuilder's views from an independent academic expert in his field.