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Cont: The Sinking of MS Estonia: Case Re-opened Part IV

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Vixen said:
The Defence Forces work on a 'need to know' basis so if you tell 'Agent Y64' to bring in the senior crew, that is all he needs to know. It will not be for him to know anything about other plans, such as prosecution, classification or disappearance. The fact Svensson openly chatted to reporters at Berga, shows he would not have known what was planned for the people he rescued.
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Oh my god. Are you claiming to know how the secret service works again? Are you claiming intimate knowledge of spycraft?

Where did you get the information on how the "Defence Forces" work? What expert did you glean this understanding from?
 
JayUtah said:
You aren't competent to evaluate the work done by Hoffmeister, or to determine whether it trumps computations done by others. He got a different answer than someone else, but not because his answer is necessarily the right one. There are a number of assumptions inherent to any such model. And the crudity of the model does not make answers conclusive.

You've latched onto Hoffmeister not because you understand his work, but because it's the answer you want to hear. It gives you an excuse to reject your predetermined enemy.
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I did not say Hoffmeister 'trumped' the JAIC. He had a different result. The JAIC should have been open to challenges.
 
Vixen said:
The Estonia side of the JAIC claim it is a cover up. Finland goes along with Sweden.
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Where do the 'Estonia side' claim it was a cover up?

Why would the chairman and the Estonian members of the JAIC go along with a cover up if they didn't agree with it?

Why would Finland go along with a Swedish cover up?
 
LondonJohn said:
...is the view of idiots and conspiracy theorists*

If anyone is responsible for this disaster, it's the shipyard which designed and built the not-fit-for-purpose bow visor mechanism & locks, and probably also the ship's owners/operators for operating the bow visor locks improperly.

Hmmm.....I wonder why the shipyard has set up its own, umm, "Group of Experts"? Surely the aim of that operation couldn't be to come up with some way of absolving the shipyard from any culpability? Surely not??


* And is not the view of anyone who knows anything about the subject, and who possesses the required level of expertise, experience and research/deduction skills...
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...is the view of the courts, the safety authorities and in the case of the Bow Belle, the Port of London Authority.
 
Jack by the hedge said:
They have special officer-seeking radar to spot captains in the sea at night even among a couple of hundred other people. Specially trained. They go through any number of captains in training, but by the end, they're the elite. No hat with a bit of brass on evades their frog-like senses. The merest sniff of an epaulet.
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I had a messmate like that, he could detect the tread of an officer along the passageway before he appeared.
 
Vixen said:
They'll be the guys in the posh life boat, warm clothes and survival suits. It's not difficult.



The captain and his senior officers of Oceanos immediately took to a life boat as soon as they knew there was a problem, leaving behind all of the passengers as the vessel slowly sank over eighteen hours. The Captain was arrested (hello!!!) and his story was that he thought the rescue would be better served if he was directing it from the shore. He was brought to justice.



So tell me, why is it nuts for the Swedish Defence Forces to go after Estonia's senior crew during the rescue, in your view?
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You think the psychic Bildt told a helicopter crew to "go find a posh life boat, it'll be easy"? Did they laugh in his face in your imagination too?

Yes, I do think it's nuts to tell a rescue crew to go after specific people during a desperate multi-national rescue effort. I think that's completely unhinged. Would you tell them to throw back everyone they rescued who turned out not to be an officer?
 
Captain_Swoop said:
It wouldn't matter anyway. if a side lock failed first it wouldn't mean the bottom lock didn't fail, in fact it would contribute to the failure of the bottom lock.
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That is not how tension works. The atlantic lock was added as an accessory lock to make people feel safer when sailing, erm, the Atlantic, hence its name. Whilst it takes some of the tension of the side locks, it doesn't really affect them if it wasn't there at all. we know that the bolt was faulty on the Estonia anyway.

So, a strong wave breaking off the Atlantic lock wouldn't cause the bow visor to lift up necessarily and in any case Hoffmeister, who is an expert on machine tools, found the stress fracture and corrosion levels in the side locks would have caused them to break first.
 
Vixen said:
The Defence Forces work on a 'need to know' basis so if you tell 'Agent Y64' to bring in the senior crew, that is all he needs to know. It will not be for him to know anything about other plans, such as prosecution, classification or disappearance. The fact Svensson openly chatted to reporters at Berga, shows he would not have known what was planned for the people he rescued.
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How? How do they fish out only senior crew? How do they locate senior crew? It makes not a scrap of sense.
 
Vixen said:
That is not how tension works. The atlantic lock was added as an accessory lock to make people feel safer when sailing, erm, the Atlantic, hence its name. Whilst it takes some of the tension of the side locks, it doesn't really affect them if it wasn't there at all. we know that the bolt was faulty on the Estonia anyway.



So, a strong wave breaking off the Atlantic lock wouldn't cause the bow visor to lift up necessarily and in any case Hoffmeister, who is an expert on machine tools, found the stress fracture and corrosion levels in the side locks would have caused them to break first.
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You don't know what you're talking about.
 
Vixen said:
That is not how tension works. The atlantic lock was added as an accessory lock to make people feel safer when sailing, erm, the Atlantic, hence its name. Whilst it takes some of the tension of the side locks, it doesn't really affect them if it wasn't there at all. we know that the bolt was faulty on the Estonia anyway.

So, a strong wave breaking off the Atlantic lock wouldn't cause the bow visor to lift up necessarily and in any case Hoffmeister, who is an expert on machine tools, found the stress fracture and corrosion levels in the side locks would have caused them to break first.
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How do you know any of this? Are you claiming expertise, or will you be linking to an expert?
 
Vixen, your "easy" mission impossible is impossible. And it's pointless. Nothing about it makes a scrap of sense.
 
Vixen said:
That is not how tension works.
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Are you claiming to be an expert in structural dynamics?

...in any case Hoffmeister, who is an expert on machine tools, found the stress fracture and corrosion levels in the side locks would have caused them to break first.
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Asked and answered.

Do you believe Hoffmeister was right about the failure sequence, and that JAIC was wrong about the failure sequence?
 
Jack by the hedge said:
Total speculation. Let's just assume for a moment that lunacy was true. The Russians said "if you Swedes buy any more of our knocked-off gear, we'll sink the Estonian's ferry". Let's pretend.

So then Bildt hears the ferry issued a Mayday. Oh, no, he thinks. I need to get rid of all of the ship's officers because... because nothing. I know, I'll tell an anti-submarine helicopter to go and pluck those particular people out of the sea because that's totally a possible thing.

It's mind-bogglingly stupid, Vixen. It's your explanation of what happened and it's mind-bogglingly stupid.
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The aim would be to interrogate them to clarify what exactly happened on that ship.
 
Jack by the hedge said:
They have special officer-seeking radar to spot captains in the sea at night even among a couple of hundred other people. Specially trained. They go through any number of captains in training, but by the end, they're the elite. No hat with a bit of brass on evades their frog-like senses. The merest sniff of an epaulet.
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Check them out: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kustjägarna
 
Captain_Swoop said:
Which 'posh lifeboat' would that be?
What is a 'posh lifeboat'?
How do you tell it from any of the other lifeboats?

remember it's dark, a raging storm and the sea is full of boats, life rafts, survivors, bodies and wreckage.

Yes it would be 'nuts' to waste resources searching for a posh lifeboat to rescue the captain and his officers that you didn't know were in a lifeboat in the first place.

Or is it now your claim that the 'powers that be' knew the captain and command team were already off the ship and in a 'posh lifeboat'?
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As opposed to the inflatable life rafts.
 
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