Cont: The Sinking of MS Estonia: Case Re-opened Part IV

[Mojo]

I don't want to go off topic, but I certainly do have one piece where the TIMES reporter reports back on what the ordinary German soldiers are saying about the British, as per eavesdropping.

There was a regular column called 'through German eyes'. One example is as attached.

As you can glean, newspapers then were excellent sources of research.

Some, such as Helsingin Sanomat have retained standards. I can understand why people in the UK are highly sceptical of early new reports as they are often based on prurience, salaciousness or faux outrage.

I’ve had a look at several of those, both from during the battle of Stalingrad and the rather later one you posted an image of. They all seem to be round-ups of what the German media were saying, with no sign of material coming from eavesdropping on German soldiers, or indeed any individual Germans.

They don’t support your claim.

 

[Mojo]

Calling the Swedes 'Gay' is background noise.

It’s just another dead cat that Vixen has thrown on the table.

 

[Hellbound]

What exactly does, "transport ships for the wounded were painted grey and fitted with anti-aircraft artillery." mean?

It means they were not protected targets according to the Geneva Convention.

1. It did not display the Red Cross or red crescent symbols (or white coloration) denoting a medical vessel. Without identification there is no protection.

2. Even if it was white with red crosses, the addition of anti-aircraft guns would nullify its protection. You cannot arm a ship or vehicle that is acting as a non-combatant. If you put a machine nest on a hospital roof, that building becomes a valid target under the laws of war.

I was in the military for 20 years, including over 3 years in combat zones. I was also a medic for about 60% of that time, including about half the combat time. Laws of warfare, and specifically Geneva protections for medical personnel/equipment, are an area in familiar with.


Sent from my volcanic island lair using carrier pigeon.

 

[Mojo]

What exactly does, "transport ships for the wounded were painted grey and fitted with anti-aircraft artillery." mean?

I think means that transport ships for the wounded were painted grey and fitted with anti-aircraft artillery, but I'm not sure.

It is a very confusing concept.

Are you sure it doesn’t mean “hospital ships were painted grey to clearly distinguish them from grey-painted battleships and transport ships?”

 

[whoanellie]

Are you sure it doesn’t mean “hospital ships were painted grey to clearly distinguish them from grey-painted battleships and transport ships?”

According to my source, hospital ships are painted hospital gray and battleships are painted battleship grey.

 

[Steve]

According to my source, hospital ships are painted hospital gray and battleships are painted battleship grey.

Perhaps you could, you know, provide that source?

 

[whoanellie]

Perhaps you could, you know, provide that source?

First tell me what is the 2nd sentence of the 3rd paragraph on page 892.

 

[Vixen]

That Riksdagen (The Swedish parliament) "admitted" something like Vixen posts is of course not how it works.

The government initiated (dec 3rd, 2004) an investigation about "transport of military material onboard M/S Estonia during september 1994". Johan Hirschfeldt was assigned to it - at the time he was a high-ranking judge.

When he completed the investigation the result was made public.

Where the "Riksdagen admitted" part comes from I don't know.

You can read it here:

https://sok.riksarkivet.se/estonia?infosida=transport-av-forsvarsmateriel

Transport of defense equipment
The TV program Kalla fakta stated on November 30, 2004 that defense equipment was smuggled on M / S Estonia on two occasions during September 1994 and that this was done on behalf of the Swedish defense. No responsible authority wanted to comment on the whole thing, but on December 3, the Government instructed the President of the Court of Appeal Johan Hirschfeldt to clarify the facts.

Hirschfeldt submitted his report to the Government on 17 February 2005. Hirschfeldt states that defense equipment was transported to Estonia on two occasions in September 1994. He also writes that there was nothing to indicate that defense equipment was transported on other occasions.

Riksdag

IOW he had no choice but to confirm what Customs Officer Lennart Henriksson stated, who witnessed illegal arms smuggling by 'higher forces than the government' to wave them through customs. Henriksson was on holiday leave 28.9.1994 which is why Hirschfeldt doesn't confirm it for that date.

Hirschfeldt in an interview 2021 says he now regrets having destroyed all of his materials in this case. He provided interesting information about his "investigation" into the transport of military equipment in Estonia. Göran Persson suddenly limited the investigation directives and omitted KSI, which was probably the body responsible for the transports. IOW KSI was exempt from the investigation and of course being secret services would have classified everything, anyway.

 

[MarkCorrigan]

OK, so I erred.

You didn't err, you lied. You made a claim and then stated your claim was supported by a specific book. When it turned out I had the book you tried to deflect and deflect away from your claim until you could no longer do so.

You are a known and proven liar, and you do not understand really, REALLY basic things about intelligence studies (such as the difference between classification and China's blanket banning of things it doesn't like) so why should anyone accept anything you have to say on these topics?

You don't understand basic science such as what welding is, so why should we accept your claims to understand metallurgical studies well enough to report on what they claim, or even how they function? I recall you so obviously failing to understand how metallurgical studies are conducted that you misunderstood Jay arguing that they found no evidence of explosives because such evidence would have been obvious as him claiming they should have looked for explosives. To make it even more laughable, you have claimed, repeatedly, to be a scientist when it is so obvious you are no such thing. My 8 year old niece understands science better than you do.

You don't understand security and intelligence studies, so why should we take your claims as to how secret operations are conducted even remotely seriously? Your idea of spycraft appears to be based more on terrible potboiler thriller novels and the movies than real life.

The problem is not only that you're so far out of your depth you don't even understand enough to understand you're wrong, the problem is when confronted with people who do know what they are talking about you assume that we are all at your own level of understanding and whine that we can't possibly be correct because we disagree with you. You act as though you think that you have attained the highest level of knowledge available and that anyone who claims to understand these topics more than you is a liar.

The problem is we aren't liars. You just won't accept being wrong, to the point where you are still deleting posts in order to make this less embarrassing for you without even realising that ship has sailed.

You don't know what you are talking about, your sources are either delusional lunatics like Bjorkman, are working from incomplete information or simply do not say what you claim they say, and you've been so thoroughly shown as an incompetent arguer that no one reading this trainwreck of a thread could possibly conclude that you have a point.

 

[Vixen]

What?

The investigation concludes that the Swedish defense did not transport military material onboard M/S Estonia at the night of the sinking. So since you quite often reference that investigation that has to be something you agree with.

And since you responded to my post, maybe you can explain what you mean when you say that the "Riksdag admitted" something? What are you referring to, and what is your source?

Th Riksdag had to admit that Sweden had smuggled Soviet/Russian state secret material on at least two occasions in September 1994 on the Estonia passenger ferry.

This was ten years after the accident. Should not this activity have been declared to the JAIC or the public, who had a right to know their lives had been knowingly put at risk, knowing from the past that Russia was not averse to taking ruthless action (cf the whiskey class sub on Sweden's rocks).

 

[Vixen]

His actions went above and beyond what was expected and they were rewarded.

Isn't that how medals work?

He didn't do anything the others didn't also do.

 

[Vixen]

So why didn't all the other crew on the helicopter get a similar award, Vixen? After all (if we accept your ludicrous interpretation for a moment) they too must have known the classified shenanigans that was going on. Why did only Svensson need to be "bought off", while the rest of them did not?

The answer is obvious, or does it need twelve feet flashing lights?

What Svensson did in supposed collaboration with Y64, Y74 and Y69, was not the reason for the highest honour.

 

[Steve]

First tell me what is the 2nd sentence of the 3rd paragraph on page 892.

No.

 

[Here_to_learn]

You can read it here:



Riksdag



IOW he had no choice but to confirm what Customs Officer Lennart Henriksson stated, who witnessed illegal arms smuggling by 'higher forces than the government' to wave them through customs. Henriksson was on holiday leave 28.9.1994 which is why Hirschfeldt doesn't confirm it for that date.



Hirschfeldt in an interview 2021 says he now regrets having destroyed all of his materials in this case. He provided interesting information about his "investigation" into the transport of military equipment in Estonia. Göran Persson suddenly limited the investigation directives and omitted KSI, which was probably the body responsible for the transports. IOW KSI was exempt from the investigation and of course being secret services would have classified everything, anyway.

I did link to the actually report from the investigation so It's clear that I'm familiar with it.

Now one could expect you to provide supporting evidence for that the Swedish Riksdag "admitted" something or another since that was what I asked for. But surprisingly enough you don't. I can only conclude that when repeatedly have used that phrase you either are misinformed or lying.

With regards to the rest of your fantasies they have absolutely no value since they (as is your norm) lack all sources and references.

 

[Vixen]

So why not give the rest of the crew a medal to keep them 'sweet'?

If everybody gets a distinction it is no longer a distinction.

 

[Vixen]

What did the uniform consist of?

What do you think a ferry officer wears?

What do you think they would be wearing in the middle of a storm, at night on a sinking ship?

We aren't talking about the Captains Table at dinner on a cruise ship.

How can you identify someone if you don't know what he looks like?

The Rockwater guys - who went in two months after the Navy - managed to describe a guy in a red jacket and a guy with a tattoo on his hand which did not match any of the senior officers.

 

[Here_to_learn]

Th Riksdag had to admit that Sweden had smuggled Soviet/Russian state secret material on at least two occasions in September 1994 on the Estonia passenger ferry.



This was ten years after the accident. Should not this activity have been declared to the JAIC or the public, who had a right to know their lives had been knowingly put at risk, knowing from the past that Russia was not averse to taking ruthless action (cf the whiskey class sub on Sweden's rocks).

Exactly how and when was the Swedish Riksdag forced to admit something? Be specific. Show the sources.

 

[JesseCuster]

If everybody gets a distinction it is no longer a distinction.

That doesn't explain why the rest of the crew didn't require bribing with medals to keep them quiet, like you claim the reason for Svensson's medal.

So why didn't the rest of the rescue crew who worked with Svensson require bribing with medals to keep them quiet? Why single out Svensson with a medal for a bribe and not anyone else?

 

[Vixen]

I’ve had a look at several of those, both from during the battle of Stalingrad and the rather later one you posted an image of. They all seem to be round-ups of what the German media were saying, with no sign of material coming from eavesdropping on German soldiers, or indeed any individual Germans.

They don’t support your claim.

There is one, I assure you.

 

[MarkCorrigan]

There is one, I assure you.

Why should we believe a word you say? You assured us that you got the idea of the WG being a hospital ship and hospital ships being painted grey from a specific book, but you didn't.