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Cont: The Sinking of MS Estonia: Case Re-opened Part IV

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Vixen said:
OK, so I erred.
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You still can't bring yourself to say something plain and simple such as (in this case) "I was wrong in my claim, and when challenged about it I was wrong* again in the way I tried to justify it".

Does writing "I erred" make it somehow seem (to you) that you actually did nothing much wrong, Vixen?


* Or, more accurately, "I was mendacious"......
 
Captain_Swoop said:
No, that's not what I said. you are the one that brought the cameras in to it.

I asked how the divers were supposed to do it when they don't know what the crew looked like and the conditions were not good.
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You don't need to know what someone looks like. You can note identifying features. AIUI the commercial crew on these passenger ferries were expected to wear uniform on duty.
 
Vixen said:
It was an award to keep him sweet for having the real reason for the medal classified.
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So why didn't all the other crew on the helicopter get a similar award, Vixen? After all (if we accept your ludicrous interpretation for a moment) they too must have known the classified shenanigans that was going on. Why did only Svensson need to be "bought off", while the rest of them did not?
 
LondonJohn said:
You still can't bring yourself to say something plain and simple such as (in this case) "I was wrong in my claim, and when challenged about it I was wrong* again in the way I tried to justify it".

Does writing "I erred" make it somehow seem (to you) that you actually did nothing much wrong, Vixen?
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Just like a politician who says "I misspoke".
 
GlennB said:
"Conspicuous gallantry"

"Bravery above and beyond the call of duty"

"For valour"
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In each class, the medal can be awarded either for actions in battle or during war-like situations or for personal efforts in other circumstances. The medal may be awarded to Swedish and foreign citizens for meritorious services that benefited the Swedish Armed Forces and its operations
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Gold is awarded for "Great personal courage by risking their own lives"

The medal awarded today only came in to being in 2008 when the previous version was amalgamated with the International Service Medal of Reward.

Awarding criteria are slightly different to the previous award.
 
Vixen said:
The heroin claim is a claim by the Felix Group, supposedly made up of ex-speznats and named after the person who founded Russian/Soviet spy agencies.



You can say it is 'lurid' but Silve Linde, JAIC golden witness, was jailed in 1996 for drug smuggling. The Finnish prosecutor wanted eleven years. He got nine years.



Fact or fiction?
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Spetsnaz? The guys you think murdered nearly a thousand people on the Estonia? Why would they tell fibs to try to make the West look bad? I guess we should believe them.
 
Vixen said:
You don't need to know what someone looks like. You can note identifying features. AIUI the commercial crew on these passenger ferries were expected to wear uniform on duty.
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YUI wrong, Vixen.

And as I said - and as you signally failed to comprehend - it was rather easy for the authorities to know which crew had perished in the disaster: they waited for a reliable list of survivors, and all the crew who did not appear on that list..... had perished.


(And that's before we even get to the additional rather obvious point: there's little or no reason why any of the bodies of the crew would even actually be accessible and visible to divers surveying the wreck on the seabed. What, Vixen, would have happened had some/all of them been either a) deep within the ship when it sank, or b) cast adrift into the sea, then drowned and carried down and away in the storm?)
 
Vixen said:
OK, so I erred.
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And you went out of your way to obfuscate your error by demanding others prove they have the book that was your citation for your claim, then refusing to provide the actual citation from the book that would prove your claim, and then providing an entirely irrelevant citation from the book about a different ship.

Tut tut.
 
Vixen said:
OK, so I retract that; it is not a war medal.

From wikipedia re the awards from (1995–2009) :



Not to detract from Svensson's undoubted bravery but how come he got a such a medal and the others did not (not even silver or bronze)?

Bearing in mind Y74 rescued not only him but also Y69 rescue man.

Not being funny but there is a common stereotype amongst older Finns of the Swedes as being 'gay', probably because they have never had to go to war, at least, not since 1721 at the Battle of Poltava (which included Finns of course, including my own sixth-great-grandfather, a major under Leuwenhaupt) or a skirmish with the Norwegians in 1788. I asked a few Finns whether this was a common view of the Swedes and they answered unfortunately, yes. [Don't shoot me, I am only the messenger. Hopefully people are more enlightened nowadays especially as Tom of Finland put gay art on the map.)
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Since WW2 Sweden has participated in fighting in the Congo, Vietnam, 1st Gulf War
Bosnia & Herzegovinia, Afghanistan, Libya and Mali.

They currently have troops in
Central African Republic
Hungary
India
Korea
Kosovo
Mali
Middle East
Pakistan
Somalia
Western Sahara
Yemen
 
Captain_Swoop said:
No, the helicopter rescue men just work from winches. They do not dive in to the water. One man goes down on the line and one operates the winch.
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Wrong. Only Finnish helicopters that regularly practice landing on passenger ships - even in severe weather - managed to bring survivors to the ferries.

Finnish rescuers disconnected themselves from the cable by jumping from 5 metres and swam to the rafts. It was riskier but faster. The first on scene was a Finnish Coast Guard helicopter crew who saved 44 people in 1 hour.
 
Vixen said:
What exactly does, "transport ships for the wounded were painted grey and fitted with anti-aircraft artillery." mean?
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it means it was a transport ship. If it was fitted with any kind of guns it was a military ship.
Even if it was just a passenger ship it belonged to a belligerent nation and was therefore a target.

It was Germany that instigated unrestricted submarine warfare.
 
Vixen said:
Pure background noise. Obfuscating the reason Estonia sank.
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No, it is a report of the organisation and operational status of the helicopters at the time of the sinking.

It is not 'background noise'

Calling the Swedes 'Gay' is background noise.
 
Vixen said:
He got the medal. They did not.

You explain it to me.
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It is explained perfectly by the “official version” to which you object. It is not explained by your conspiracy theory in which helicopter crew needed to be compensated for having their rescues hushed up.
 
Vixen said:
You don't need to know what someone looks like. You can note identifying features. AIUI the commercial crew on these passenger ferries were expected to wear uniform on duty.
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What did the uniform consist of?

What do you think a ferry officer wears?

What do you think they would be wearing in the middle of a storm, at night on a sinking ship?

We aren't talking about the Captains Table at dinner on a cruise ship.

How can you identify someone if you don't know what he looks like?
 
Vixen said:
What exactly does, "transport ships for the wounded were painted grey and fitted with anti-aircraft artillery." mean?
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I think means that transport ships for the wounded were painted grey and fitted with anti-aircraft artillery, but I'm not sure.

It is a very confusing concept. :rolleyes:
 
Vixen said:
Wrong. Only Finnish helicopters that regularly practice landing on passenger ships - even in severe weather - managed to bring survivors to the ferries.

Finnish rescuers disconnected themselves from the cable by jumping from 5 metres and swam to the rafts. It was riskier but faster. The first on scene was a Finnish Coast Guard helicopter crew who saved 44 people in 1 hour.
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But the point is they worked from a winch they didn't just jump in to the water. They had a second rescue man aboard to speed operations.

Also consider that OH-HVG along with OH-HVD it were dedicated SAR helicopters with a crews trained in recovery from the sea.
Similarly the Swedish 'Q' helicopters were dedicated SAR helicopters whereas the 'Y' helicopters were Anti Submarine helicopters pressed in to service with crews specialising in AS warfare, not SAR.

Only two landings were made aboard ships, one each by OH-HVG and OH-HVD but it proved too rough to continue with this and survivors had to be taken directly ashore.

OH-HVG was the first helicopter there, it was from Finland. Alerted at 01:35, it took off at 02:30 and arrived at the scene at 03:05. It was on one hour standby.

It did not save 44 survivors in one hour. That was the total number saved in three flights between the first at 03:05 and the end of the final flight at 12:30. Most were saved on the second flight between 0515 hrs to 0915 when there was enough light to see survivors in the water.

It made a fourth flight with a new crew between 16:00 and 19:15 only bodies were recovered.
 
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Vixen said:
NATO Troops.
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What is your point?

I am sure that Vietnam was not NATO.

Are NATO troops Gay too?

Does it not count if you are killed while part of NATO?

Also I think you will find that some of the deployments are UN, does that count as Gay?
 
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