Cont: The Sinking of MS Estonia: Case Re-opened Part IV

[Vixen]

Thanks for the added detail.

Your theory is that people who were in on not just the coverup but who were also involved in the smuggling, wanted to keep the truth of Svensson's early rescues classified but also wanted to publicly reward him for doing it. They were rewarding him for acts that were apparently publicly known but that they were denying happened.

These conspirators had an innovative approach to keeping secrets.

Well, they had the cover of the story of Y64 getting involved with Y74 and Y69, so they could always hint it was to do with that.

 

[Vixen]

Vixen I have provided the appropriate quote to prove to you that I do indeed own the book, now please provide the page number for your claim as I have requested.

That wasn't the correct line from the book, but I'll let you have it since it is kindle.

I have forgotten what the quibble was but if you read the kindle account you will become aware the Wilhelm Gustloff was predominantly a civilian ship as of the time it was sunk.

From New Yorker:

In regard to the Wilhelm Gustloff, the Soviet occupiers of what became East Germany did nothing to disturb the silence: the ship’s sinking went unmentioned in the official bulletins of the Baltic Red Banner Fleet, and the sub’s commander, Aleksandr Marinesko, a hard-drinking carouser from Odessa whose Romanian father spelled his name “Marinescu,” was denied the recognition he had expected. Though he sank the twenty-five-thousand-ton Gustloff and another German vessel, the General Von Steuben, on the same trip, slaying more than twelve thousand enemies, he was not declared a Hero of the Soviet Union. Instead, after the war he was relieved of his command, degraded to lieutenant, and finally discharged from the Soviet Navy, an “indifferent and negligent attitude toward his duties” being cited as the reason.

Whilst wiki is excellent for looking up quick facts, it is not necessarily always correct (for example, remember how the wiki entry for The Herald of Free Enterprise states that it had no watertight bulkheads?). Another problem is mindless cutting and pasting of 'facts' so if one source erroneously calls it a military ship, then everybody thereafter follows suit. We saw how Axxman300 said the Nazis were baddies so who cares, which is circumventing the issue of what is or is not a fair target.

 

[whoanellie]

Not faithfully being fully satisfied with the JAIC report does not make it a 'conspiracy theory'.

Be honest with yourself and us. There's a little more to it than that, isn't there vixen? You're not just less than fully satisfied.

Why don't you tell us why you think Svensson got a medal? Give us a coherent rationale for him receiving a medal that differs from the official version.

 

[Vixen]

I wonder what you think you can achieve with such obvious lying. I claim nothing of what you say above, and nor does the Sceptics society-commisioned survey.

My posts are available in the thread for all to read. Your dishonesty is plainly visible.

Why did you draw attention to a survey that presumes to show that anyone who doesn't accept the JAIC conclusion must be (a) stupid (b) ill educated and (c) lower class, etc? IMV it is ludicrous to lump this in with the antivaxxer movement.

 

[Vixen]

Here's the root of the MS Estonia CT...

The ship sank in rough seas, the crew didn't perform well, and there was a design problem with the bow-visor.

At the time of the sinking, "stolen" Russian military gear and or technology was being smuggled out of the former Eastern Block by conglomerate of personalities ranging from now-unemployed Soviet officers, to mobsters, to the entire list of western intelligence services.

Like the JFK Assassination in 1963, Lee Oswald shot the President all by himself. But because the Kennedy Administration had been running multiple anti-Castro operations (JMWAVE and Mongoose, etc) out of New Orleans, and Mexico City, two places where Oswald spent time, many lines of inquiry were shut down by the AG(RFK), and the CIA. This lead to charges of a coverup to hide a larger conspiracy.

The same seems to be the case with the MS Estonia. Sweden's actions and choices seem shady, and there might have been sensitive Russian goodies onboard the ship when it sank. But, like with the JFK/Cuba material, the - possible - smuggling is a peripheral topic that had nothing to do with the bow-visor getting knocked off in heavy seas. And just as many people can't swallow the fact that a nobody-loser like Oswald killed an icon like JFK all alone, some people can't get past the idea that the Estonia, like JFK, was a victim of circumstance.

For all the many pages written, Vixen has not been able to provide credible evidence that the JAIC report's final conclusions for the sinking are wrong.

That might seem reasonable enough, except there is no way Bildt and his JAIC spokesperson could conclude on day one that the bow visor had a design fault. Sometimes a cover up is obvious. No-one knew why until ten years later when the Customs whistleblower came forward.

 

[Vixen]

Again, this is precisely the point that your conspiracy theory fails to address. You claim that the medal was awarded to Svensson “to compensate for being only credited with one rescue in the official JAIC figures.” Why did Svensson, who is credited with seven rescues, need compensation for only being credited with one rescue, and the rest of the crew of Y64, who were credited with one rescue, not need compensation?

He is officially credited with one rescue.

 

[Here_to_learn]

Why did you draw attention to a survey that presumes to show that anyone who doesn't accept the JAIC conclusion must be (a) stupid (b) ill educated and (c) lower class, etc? IMV it is ludicrous to lump this in with the antivaxxer movement.

Why do you keep posting lies on what I say and what the survey say?

 

[whoanellie]

Why did you draw attention to a survey that presumes to show that anyone who doesn't accept the JAIC conclusion must be (a) stupid (b) ill educated and (c) lower class, etc? IMV it is ludicrous to lump this in with the antivaxxer movement.

The survey didn't presume anything. You did.

 

[whoanellie]

The ship was a bloody floating barracks for soldiers. Of course it had rudimentary hospital facilities, that doesn't make it a hospital ship any more than it having relaxation facilities for the soldiers makes it a pleasure cruiser.

So your source is Sea of Death: The Baltic is it? Interesting. Which page, please, says that the ship was a hospital ship, or alternatively that the ship was "painted grey in the classic colour of a hospital ship"?

You see I own this book, I'd like to look it up myself.

That wasn't the correct line from the book, but I'll let you have it since it is kindle.

I have forgotten what the quibble was but if you read the kindle account you will become aware the Wilhelm Gustloff was predominantly a civilian ship as of the time it was sunk.

You were asked to provide a specific page number in the book.

 

[whoanellie]

He is officially credited with one rescue.

What is your theory as to why he was given a medal?

 

[Mojo]

Not faithfully being fully satisfied with the JAIC report does not make it a 'conspiracy theory'.

Posting that on the same page as the stuff about helicopter rescues, cover-ups and medals is pretty impressive.

 

[Steve]

That might seem reasonable enough, except there is no way Bildt and his JAIC spokesperson could conclude on day one that the bow visor had a design fault. Sometimes a cover up is obvious.

Way more frequently a simple mistake or misstatement is obvious.

What, in your opinion, is the difference between this cover up that you flatly state occurred and is ongoing, and a conspiracy to conceal which you continually deny you are espousing?

No-one knew why until ten years later when the Customs whistleblower came forward.

I suggest that the "Customs whistleblower" was even more mistaken than Bildt or the JAIC. I suggest that after ten years the "Customs whistleblower's" memory was somewhat less than accurate. No evidence has been provided to the contrary.

 

[Vixen]

Be honest with yourself and us. There's a little more to it than that, isn't there vixen? You're not just less than fully satisfied.

Why don't you tell us why you think Svensson got a medal? Give us a coherent rationale for him receiving a medal that differs from the official version.

He delivered the senior officers of the ship.

As the incident had to be classified, involving as it likely did the interests of the Swedish defence forces, his acts of heroism also had to be.

Compare and contrast the treatment of The Herald of Free Enterprise and the Thames riverboat disaster, Bow Belle - or even the current Scot Carrier incident that ran down a Danish vessel - were not the captains and shipowners brought before the courts to answer gross negligence and corporate manslaughter charges? A thousand people died on the Estonia - hundredfolds more - and yet 'no-one is to blame' 'it was due to a little design fault' is the immediate official reaction.

H L Mencken once said:

"No one in this world, so far as I know—and I have searched the records for years, and employed agents to help me—has ever lost money by underestimating the intelligence of the great masses of the plain people. Nor has anyone ever lost public office thereby."

But the public were, and are, not as dimwitted as they thought.

 

[Vixen]

Way more frequently a simple mistake or misstatement is obvious.

What, in your opinion, is the difference between this cover up that you flatly state occurred and is ongoing, and a conspiracy to conceal which you continually deny you are espousing?



I suggest that the "Customs whistleblower" was even more mistaken than Bildt or the JAIC. I suggest that after ten years the "Customs whistleblower's" memory was somewhat less than accurate. No evidence has been provided to the contrary.

The Swedish Riksdag accepted the Soviet smuggling in September 1994 as an acknowledged fact that it did do this.

As that is official how can you call it a conspiracy theory. I thought you lay great store in what 'officials' tell you?

Until it comes from the mouth of an official it hasn't happened. So what went wrong here with Johan Hirschfeldt's statement to the Riksdag in 2005?

Can't have it both ways.

Or maybe you prefer to consult the tarot for the truth of a matter.

 

[Mojo]

He is officially credited with one rescue.

Leaving aside this incorrigible terminological inexactitude of yours, why did the rest of Y64’s crew, who were certainly only credited with one rescue, not require compensation?

 

[Mojo]

He delivered the senior officers of the ship.

[citation needed]

 

[MarkCorrigan]

That wasn't the correct line from the book, but I'll let you have it since it is kindle.

I have forgotten what the quibble was but if you read the kindle account you will become aware the Wilhelm Gustloff was predominantly a civilian ship as of the time it was sunk.

From New Yorker:



Whilst wiki is excellent for looking up quick facts, it is not necessarily always correct (for example, remember how the wiki entry for The Herald of Free Enterprise states that it had no watertight bulkheads?). Another problem is mindless cutting and pasting of 'facts' so if one source erroneously calls it a military ship, then everybody thereafter follows suit. We saw how Axxman300 said the Nazis were baddies so who cares, which is circumventing the issue of what is or is not a fair target.

This is not what I asked for. You've since been reminded so I won't repeat my request, but the bizarre rant about wikipedia at the end is just plain gibberish.

Answer the question I asked please, not the one that you wanted me to ask.

 

[JesseCuster]

The Swedish Riksdag accepted the Soviet smuggling in September 1994 as an acknowledged fact that it did do this.

As that is official how can you call it a conspiracy theory.

The conspiracy theory isn't that there was arms smuggling on the Estonia.

The conspiracy theories are all the BS about rogue KGB agents, secret escort British submarines, Spetsnaz, detonation charges, disappeared crew members, hidden helicopter flights, Israeli arms dealing, blank torpedo firing minisubs, wheeled submarines on the bottom of the Baltic, bow visor lock dissolving nuclear material, trucks full of heroin being pushed off the ship in the middle of a storm, etc.

You know, all that stuff that is clearly nutty conspiracy theory half-baked nonsense.

 

[JesseCuster]

He delivered the senior officers of the ship.

Is that a fact?

 

[Andy_Ross]

Exactly. Only Svensson got a medal.

Why?

because after being stranded in the water and rescued himself he went on to take over from another rescue man and continued rescuing people until he himself was injured.

Classic candidate for a commendation.

If it was to keep him quiet about the 'secret mission' why were the pilot and the other crew members not given medals? What was their reward?