Cont: The Sinking of MS Estonia: Case Re-opened Part IV

[Vixen]

Where are you getting 15 minutes from?

the helicopters on standby were on 1 hour, the Navy helicopter was on 2 hour. Y 64 and Y 74 were not standby helicopters, they were anti submarine warfare helicopters. they would never have been on standby for search and rescue.

I just posted all the details of the standby times and both take off and arrival on scene times for the Swedish helicopters.

Not one of them was on 15 minute standby.

Berga may be a big base but the helicopter on standby there was on 2 hour standby, not one hour.
If the one hour standby helicopters were all engaged or had to be stood down it would have been brought up to one hour standby.

As it happened the Estonia sinking was such a big emergency all the standby helicopters were activated and other helicopters, such as Y64, 74, 68 and 69 had to be brought in to supplement them.

26 helicopters participated in the rescue operation and search for bodies. Of these eight came from Finland, 14 from Sweden, one from Estonia, two from Denmark and one from the Russian Federation. In addition five helicopters served as logistical support, e.g. by transporting first-aid personnel.

Standard protocol is Sweden, even in 1994.

For example, the Finnbirch disaster, 1 Nov 2006. Here's the MRCC/ARCC helicopter rescue timeline:

15:45 ARCC alerts Ronneby helicopter base (Y 67)


15:54 MRCC alerts SSRS Visby. MRCC has now received information from the
Owners that the cargo consists of paper products and trailers and that the ship
is on a voyage from Helsingfors to Århus and that there are 14-15 persons on
board. After this point in time, Marneborg begins, in practice, to act as OSC
without a formal decision being made by RL.

15:55 Hcp Y 67 take off from Ronneby.

15:57 Hcp LG 997 take off from Visby. At the same time, another two ships, Finnhansa and Tomke have acknowledged the emergency call and RL requests
them to proceed toward Finnbirch.

Turvallistutkimust Page 63 pdf

Note these helicopters from Ronneby and Visby set off within ten minutes of being commanded to. This is because protocol states, 'within fifteen minutes'.

So we can be sure that in the Estonia case it certainly did not take until 0350 before the first Swedish helicopter arrived but makes perfect sense that Y64 and Y74 having received a command from MRCC Stockholm at 0202 were on their way by 0215 and when MRCC Turku notified Silja Europa the Swedes helicopters will be there 'in ten minutes' at 0227, it was being factually precise, if slightly optimistic, based ont he fact it was confirmed they were on their way.

This is when Ensign Svensson saved the eight who later went missing and were written out of the JAIC report and the Swedish Government Official Estonia Archives. Classified no doubt, as is the reason for their disappearance. So Ensign gets a Gold Medal with Sword, the highest Swedish Defense Forces Medal of Merit instead, to keep him sweet.

Do you really think Sweden's MRCC is going to take two hours to rescue its own citizens in distress?

Report RS 2008:03e
The Swedish Accident Investigation Board has investigated the loss of M/S
Finnbirch on 1 November 2006 in the Baltic Sea between Öland and Gotland.
A representative of The Finnish Accident Investigation Board participated in
the investigation.
The Swedish Accident Investigation Board presents herewith, in accordance
with paragraph 14 of the relevant Ordinance (1990:717) its report on the investigation.
The Swedish Accident Investigation Board requests that reports of actions
which have been taken on the basis of the recommendations included in the
report be submitted on or before 1 June 2009.

ibid

 

[Vixen]

From wiki:

"Originally constructed as a cruise ship for the Nazi Strength Through Joy (Kraft durch Freude) organization in 1937, Wilhelm Gustloff had been requisitioned by the Kriegsmarine (German navy) in 1939. She served as a hospital ship in 1939 and 1940. She was then assigned as a floating barracks for naval personnel in Gotenhafen before being armed and put into service to transport evacuees in 1945. "

Other sources confirm this.

Yet again vixen is shown to have been talking utter bollocks.

Wikipedia is not always correct. My textbook describes the Wilhelm Gustloff as being painted grey in the classic colour of a hospital ship. Operation Hannibal was a mass evacuation of civilians from Prussia, which was now a Soviet -occupation (Kaliningrad). The submarine commander who torpedoed it despite having a record number of successes in sinking German ships, his downing of civilians (even if hated Germans) was not treated as particularly heroic and he soon went into obscurity as a drunk, albeit there is some kind of memorial to him in Russia.

 

[Vixen]

Also, Gustlov was not a hospital ship.

It certainly had an entire hospital ward and used the swimming pool for injured military. Any male over the age of 16 who was not injured had to explain why he was not in the army fighting. In all, the passengers were mainly ordinary citizens, women, children and the elderly and a whole bunch of nurses.

So yes, it technically was not a war ship either.

 

[Andy_Ross]

Standard protocol is Sweden, even in 1994.

For example, the Finnbirch disaster, 1 Nov 2006. Here's the MRCC/ARCC helicopter rescue timeline:

Turvallistutkimust Page 63 pdf

Note these helicopters from Ronneby and Visby set off within ten minutes of being commanded to. This is because protocol states, 'within fifteen minutes'.

So we can be sure that in the Estonia case it certainly did not take until 03:50 before the first Swedish helicopter arrived but makes perfect sense that Y64 and Y74 having received a command from MRCC Stockholm at 0202 were on their way by 0215 and when MRCC Turku notified Silja Europa the Swedes helicopters will be there 'in ten minutes' at 0227, it was being factually precise, if slightly optimistic, based ont he fact it was confirmed they were on their way.

This is when Ensign Svensson saved the eight who later went missing and were written out of the JAIC report and the Swedish Government Official Estonia Archives. Classified no doubt, as is the reason for their disappearance. So Ensign gets a Gold Medal with Sword, the highest Swedish Defense Forces Medal of Merit instead, to keep him sweet.

Do you really think Sweden's MRCC is going to take two hours to rescue its own citizens in distress?


ibid

Standby time was one hour at the time of the Estonia sinking for the helicopters involved.

First to respond and arrive was the Finnish OH-HVG, it was alerted at 01:35, taking off at 02:30 hrs from Turku and arriving at the scene of the accident at 03:05 hrs

First Swedish helicopter was The Swedish stand-by helicopter Q 97, it was alerted at 02:07 and took off from Visby at 02:50 hrs, arriving at the scene of the accident at 03:50 hrs.

Third helicopter was The Swedish stand-by helicopter Y 65 alerted at 02:09 it was on 2 hour standby, took off from Berga at 03:20 hrs. Because the MBS system was shut down that night due to a malfunction, the alerting of the crew was delayed ten minutes. It arrived at the scene of the accident at 04:00.

Y64 and Y74 were not standby helicopters. They were not SAR helicopters at all. They were Anti Submarine helicopters. They were alerted at 02:30 and 03:30 respectively. They had to assemble a rescue crew as they did not usually fly with a rescue man as they were Anti Submarine Helicopters.
Y 64 took off from Berga at 04:45 hrs, picked up a physician and a nurse from Huddinge Hospital and arrived at the scene of the accident at 05:52
Y 74 took off from Berga at 05:46 hrs. Carrying a physician and a nurse from Huddinge Hospital and arrived at the scene of the accident at 06:42 hrs.

Here are all the details for every helicopter involved including their type, nationality, primary function, crew, status of rescue men, capacity, alert time, readiness, who alerted them, how they were alerted, take off and arrival times and how many rescued.

https://onse.fi/estonia/kuvat/suuren/kuva7_7s.gif

 

[Vixen]

Standby time was one hour at the time of the Estonia sinking for the helicopters involved.

Here are all the details for every helicopter involved including their alert readiness times. The shortest are the standby SAR helicopters with one hour.

https://onse.fi/estonia/kuvat/suuren/kuva7_7s.gif

You keep forgetting that the JAIC had to write the early rescue by Svensson out.

It is not mentioned.

Kenneth Svensson assisted as rescue man in one of the first three Vertol-helicopters that left from Berga naval base outside Stockholm. The time was then just after two o'clock in the night. After an hour they arrived

Aftonbladet 29.9.1994

It is no good referring to a document which you know has skipped the fact Svensson saved eight people after setting off 'just after 0200'.

Olli Moberg confirmed to Jack A Nelson in Flashes in the Night that he arrived at the scene at 0300.

This information comes frrom the mouths of Svensson and Moberg.

Svensson received the highest medal despite only saving one according to the JAIC and messing about in the water with his flippers getting ripped.

 

[Andy_Ross]

Wikipedia is not always correct. My textbook describes the Wilhelm Gustloff as being painted grey in the classic colour of a hospital ship. Operation Hannibal was a mass evacuation of civilians from Prussia, which was now a Soviet -occupation (Kaliningrad). The submarine commander who torpedoed it despite having a record number of successes in sinking German ships, his downing of civilians (even if hated Germans) was not treated as particularly heroic and he soon went into obscurity as a drunk, albeit there is some kind of memorial to him in Russia.

Grey is not the 'classic colour of a hospital ship' where did you get that from?

If anything a large white square with a red cross painted on it is the markings for a hospital ship.
They were still 'fair game' as enemy ships.

Wilhelm Gustloff was not a hospital ship when it was sunk.

I gave you yesterday a list of all the hospital ships that were sunk in WW2 and who sank them.

 

[Vixen]

Grey is not the 'classic colour of a hospital ship' where did you get that from?

If anything a large white square with a red cross painted on it is the markings for a hospital ship.
They were still 'fair game' as enemy ships.

Wilhelm Gustloff was not a hospital ship when it was sunk.

I gave you yesterday a list of all the hospital ships that were sunk in WW2 and who sank them.

I must have missed your list, if you could cite it again, please.

My source is not wikipedia or google but a book by Claes-Goran Wetterholm, Sea of Death the Baltic 1945, 2021, The History Press.

The ship was a passenger ship with hospital facilities. How you want to pigeonhole it is up to you.

 

[Reformed Offlian]

You keep forgetting that the JAIC had to write the early rescue by Svensson out.

It is not mentioned.

Because it never happened. You cannot cite a single source that says that Y 64 went out twice. Prove me wrong.

Aftonbladet 29.9.1994

Does not say Y 64 made two trips.

It is no good referring to a document which you know has skipped the fact Svensson saved eight people after setting off 'just after 0200'.

Why should anyone believe that your favorite Aftonblad article trumps other sources? Why should they not simply consider that Aftobladet made mistakes, especially when you yourself feel free disregard key aspects of its reporting when they don't fit the story you want to tell?

From your own extract:

"The helicopter was forced to leave Kenneth Svensson alone in the water in order to fly to Huddinge hospital with the injured. In the helicopter were nine persons, one of whom was dead."

So. taking your own favorite reference at face value, the eight people Svensson rescued were still in Y 64 at the time he fell into the water, and weren't taken to hospital until afterwards. They weren't dropped off anywhere prior to a second outing, an outing Aftonbladet never mentions. And Aftonbladet incorrectly reports that Y 64 went to Huddinge after it left Svensson behind. It didn't; it went to Uto. So we know that there are mistakes in the article.

The most likely explanation for the mistake here is that the writer mixed up Y 64 and Y 74. Y 74 *did* go to Huddinge with eight rescued people (counting Svensson himself) and at least one body.

 

[MarkCorrigan]

The ship was a bloody floating barracks for soldiers. Of course it had rudimentary hospital facilities, that doesn't make it a hospital ship any more than it having relaxation facilities for the soldiers makes it a pleasure cruiser.

So your source is Sea of Death: The Baltic is it? Interesting. Which page, please, says that the ship was a hospital ship, or alternatively that the ship was "painted grey in the classic colour of a hospital ship"?

You see I own this book, I'd like to look it up myself.

 

[Andy_Ross]

I must have missed your list, if you could cite it again, please.

My source is not wikipedia or google but a book by Claes-Goran Wetterholm, Sea of Death the Baltic 1945, 2021, The History Press.

The ship was a passenger ship with hospital facilities. How you want to pigeonhole it is up to you.

Wilhelm Gustloff wasn't considered to be, or claimed to be a hospital ship. It was a military transport.
There were many dozens of military and civilian transports sunk by all sides in WW2

As for hospital ships in particular, in WW2
Britain had 6 sunk by German action and 1 by Italian.
Germany had 2 sunk, 1 by Russia and 1 by Britain
Italy had 6 sunk, 5 by the British and 1 by the USA.
Japan had 2 sunk by the USA and 2 lost to other causes
Greece had 4 sunk by the Germans
Australia had 1 sunk by Japan

Not many German cargo, transport or hospital ships were sunk as they were largely blockaded in port and could not get to sea.

I can if you want give you the names of the ships and the dates and locations of their sinking.

 

[Andy_Ross]

Because it never happened. You cannot cite a single source that says that Y 64 went out twice. Prove me wrong.



Does not say Y 64 made two trips.



Why should anyone believe that your favorite Aftonblad article trumps other sources? Why should they not simply consider that Aftobladet made mistakes, especially when you yourself feel free disregard key aspects of its reporting when they don't fit the story you want to tell?

From your own extract:

"The helicopter was forced to leave Kenneth Svensson alone in the water in order to fly to Huddinge hospital with the injured. In the helicopter were nine persons, one of whom was dead."

So. taking your own favorite reference at face value, the eight people Svensson rescued were still in Y 64 at the time he fell into the water, and weren't taken to hospital until afterwards. They weren't dropped off anywhere prior to a second outing, an outing Aftonbladet never mentions. And Aftonbladet incorrectly reports that Y 64 went to Huddinge after it left Svensson behind. It didn't; it went to Uto. So we know that there are mistakes in the article.

The most likely explanation for the mistake here is that the writer mixed up Y 64 and Y 74. Y 74 *did* go to Huddinge with eight rescued people (counting Svensson himself) and at least one body.

Y 64 had aboard a pilot, co-pilot, tactical officer, engineer and rescue man as well as medical staff. After it lost the rescue man in to the water and gained a survivor it could well have had 8 people aboard. It’s capacity was 25.

 

[Reformed Offlian]

Y 64 had aboard a pilot, co-pilot, tactical officer, engineer and rescue man as well as medical staff. After it lost the rescue man in to the water and gained a survivor it could well have had 8 people aboard. It’s capacity was 25.

That's pretty clearly not what the article is talking about, though.

 

[abaddon]

Wikipedia is not always correct. My textbook describes the Wilhelm Gustloff as being painted grey in the classic colour of a hospital ship. Operation Hannibal was a mass evacuation of civilians from Prussia, which was now a Soviet -occupation (Kaliningrad). The submarine commander who torpedoed it despite having a record number of successes in sinking German ships, his downing of civilians (even if hated Germans) was not treated as particularly heroic and he soon went into obscurity as a drunk, albeit there is some kind of memorial to him in Russia.

So Wilhelm Gustloff was painted grey.

Battleships are painted grey.

Hospital ships are NOT painted grey much because they know it makes them a target.

It's like you know nothing at all.

I mean what genius do you think decided it would be a good idea to paint a hospital ship like a battleship? Do you think this would be a good idea, somehow? There is a reason why it is called "Battleship Grey". Think you can work that out, perhaps? Are you capable of research? Of any kind?

Of course not.


But all of this is horribly off topic. Estonia was not painted military grey anyway, so it is entirely irrelevant to the issue at hand.

 

[SpitfireIX]

Wikipedia is not always correct. My textbook describes the Wilhelm Gustloff as being painted grey in the classic colour of a hospital ship. Operation Hannibal was a mass evacuation of civilians from Prussia, which was now a Soviet -occupation (Kaliningrad). The submarine commander who torpedoed it despite having a record number of successes in sinking German ships, his downing of civilians (even if hated Germans) was not treated as particularly heroic and he soon went into obscurity as a drunk, albeit there is some kind of memorial to him in Russia.

Convention (III) for the Adaptation to Maritime Warfare of the Principles of the Geneva Convention of 22 August 1864. The Hague, 29 July 1899.
ART. 5

The military hospital ships shall be distinguished by being painted white outside with a horizontal band of green about a metre and a half in breadth.
The ships mentioned in Articles 2 and 3 [hospital ships of non-state organizations] shall be distinguished by being painted white outside with a horizontal band of red about a metre and a half in breadth.
The boats of the ships above mentioned, as also small craft which may be used for hospital work, shall be distinguished by similar painting.
All hospital ships shall make themselves known by hoisting, together with their national flag, the white flag with a red cross provided by the Geneva Convention.​

Fail.

 

[GlennB]

Convention (III) for the Adaptation to Maritime Warfare of the Principles of the Geneva Convention of 22 August 1864. The Hague, 29 July 1899.
ART. 5

The military hospital ships shall be distinguished by being painted white outside with a horizontal band of green about a metre and a half in breadth.
The ships mentioned in Articles 2 and 3 [hospital ships of non-state organizations] shall be distinguished by being painted white outside with a horizontal band of red about a metre and a half in breadth.
The boats of the ships above mentioned, as also small craft which may be used for hospital work, shall be distinguished by similar painting.
All hospital ships shall make themselves known by hoisting, together with their national flag, the white flag with a red cross provided by the Geneva Convention.​

Fail.

It's almost as if Vixen is aiming for maximum wrongness.

 

[junkshop]

Vixen,

I note with some disappointment (but no great surprise) that you've not yet answered the questions I put to you in post #2251.

I answered your (IMO irrelevant) counter-question in post #2282, and feel it is only fair to ask you to reciprocate. If you cannot, or will not, then I ask that you at least let me know why.

 

[Vixen]

Because it never happened. You cannot cite a single source that says that Y 64 went out twice. Prove me wrong.



Does not say Y 64 made two trips.



Why should anyone believe that your favorite Aftonblad article trumps other sources? Why should they not simply consider that Aftobladet made mistakes, especially when you yourself feel free disregard key aspects of its reporting when they don't fit the story you want to tell?

From your own extract:

"The helicopter was forced to leave Kenneth Svensson alone in the water in order to fly to Huddinge hospital with the injured. In the helicopter were nine persons, one of whom was dead."

So. taking your own favorite reference at face value, the eight people Svensson rescued were still in Y 64 at the time he fell into the water, and weren't taken to hospital until afterwards. They weren't dropped off anywhere prior to a second outing, an outing Aftonbladet never mentions. And Aftonbladet incorrectly reports that Y 64 went to Huddinge after it left Svensson behind. It didn't; it went to Uto. So we know that there are mistakes in the article.

The most likely explanation for the mistake here is that the writer mixed up Y 64 and Y 74. Y 74 *did* go to Huddinge with eight rescued people (counting Svensson himself) and at least one body.

The Aftobladet refers to Svensson by name. It doesn't reference his helicopter.


Do you think it is plausible that

(a) having been commanded by Swedish MRCC at logged time 0200 (their time 0100) to commence helicopter rescue (of over 500 Swedish nationals in a part-Swedish owned vessel) the first Swedish helicopter to arrive was at 0350?

(b) that Y64, Svensson's helicopter arriving at 0552 and Y74 at 0642 some four/five hours after Estonia disappeared off the radar, and rescuing seven between them, as per the JAIC Report

(c) that Aftonbladet's 28.9.1994 papers had a headline feting Svensson as a 'hero' who saved nine

(d) a second article next day 29.9.1994 saying he 'set off just after 0200'

(e) Turku MRCC advising Silja Europa that 'the first Swedish helicopter will be here in ten minutes' at time 0227

and (f) Svensson receiving the highest Swedish Defence Forces Medal of Merit, Gold with Sword,

means the JAIC report must be the correct version, when it states he arrived at about six in the morning and saved just one?

 

[Vixen]

Wilhelm Gustloff wasn't considered to be, or claimed to be a hospital ship. It was a military transport.
There were many dozens of military and civilian transports sunk by all sides in WW2

As for hospital ships in particular, in WW2
Britain had 6 sunk by German action and 1 by Italian.
Germany had 2 sunk, 1 by Russia and 1 by Britain
Italy had 6 sunk, 5 by the British and 1 by the USA.
Japan had 2 sunk by the USA and 2 lost to other causes
Greece had 4 sunk by the Germans
Australia had 1 sunk by Japan

Not many German cargo, transport or hospital ships were sunk as they were largely blockaded in port and could not get to sea.

I can if you want give you the names of the ships and the dates and locations of their sinking.

It is all pedantry, isn't it, as the Wilhelm Gustloff was built as a cruise passenger ship for German workers to relax on. It was never a war ship or a military ship. It had just one escort on its way out to its destination.

 

[Vixen]

Vixen,

I note with some disappointment (but no great surprise) that you've not yet answered the questions I put to you in post #2251.

I answered your (IMO irrelevant) counter-question in post #2282, and feel it is only fair to ask you to reciprocate. If you cannot, or will not, then I ask that you at least let me know why.

Asked and answered.

What is it you did not like about the answer?

 

[Here_to_learn]

The Swedish Sceptics Society presented a study today. 2500 Swedes were interviewed on several different subjects.

27% agreed more or less with the statement "The real reason behind the sinking of M/S Estonia has been hidden by the government."(p50)

Among sympathizers with different political parties, about 60% of those voting for Sverigedemokraterna (The Nationalist right-wing populist party) agreed with the statement (p56). Lower level of education did also correlate with agreeing with the statement (p54).