Cont: The Sinking of MS Estonia: Case Re-opened Part IV

[Jack by the hedge]

It matches exactly later reports. Are you saying the Aftonbladet journalist was psychic?

I'm saying Aftonbladet clearly reported on events from the documented flight of Y64 and Y74.

Are you still claiming they did not do so because it happened too late in the morning to have made that day's edition? I would be grateful if you would answer that question.

 

[Jack by the hedge]

... I am not sure if Piht was in the same lifeboat as these as he was possibly picked up on the Mariella. He was last sighted on the ship throwing life vests and jumping overboard to a life raft.

It's notable that he was not last sighted on the Mariella. Whatever your fantasy version may be of what became of Piht, you do not have a single eyewitness who saw him after the sinking.

 

[Axxman300]

It is not silly for those thousand who lost their lives.

What do you care? The MS Estonia disaster-CT is nothing more than a parlor game. As are all CTs.

 

[Stamuel]

The Swedish Defence Forces military chief at the tie was Emil Svensson (I doubt they are related) and the person responsible for ordering the illicit Soviet cargo was another chief, Uwe Wictorin, who awarded Svensson his medal. The defence forces control MUST, their military spy wing so of course they must have all agreed it was to be a classified event. However Wictorin was keen to see Svensson rewarded for his early heroic feat and as reported in Aftonbladet and as repeated by later reports.

Thanks for the added detail.

Your theory is that people who were in on not just the coverup but who were also involved in the smuggling, wanted to keep the truth of Svensson's early rescues classified but also wanted to publicly reward him for doing it. They were rewarding him for acts that were apparently publicly known but that they were denying happened.

These conspirators had an innovative approach to keeping secrets.

 

[Jack by the hedge]

They should have special medals for things they want to publicly reward people for while also denying the events ever happened. In the form of a double cross perhaps. The Order of Saint.. wait, who is the patron saint of implausible deniability?

 

[Here_to_learn]

Whilst personally I cannot abide anarchists, conspiracy theorists, anti-vaxxers and neo-nazis, I think it is contemptible to label people as 'stupid, mad or fanatical' or all three just BECAUSE THEY HAVE A DIFFERENT VIEW than the one you want them to have. To construct a survey that you claim proves your hypothesis that 'leftie, righties, climate changers, extinction rebels' are all low IQ morons and probably insane, is a disgraceful misuse of statistics.

I wonder what you think you can achieve with such obvious lying. I claim nothing of what you say above, and nor does the Sceptics society-commisioned survey.

My posts are available in the thread for all to read. Your dishonesty is plainly visible.

 

[abaddon]

Whilst personally I cannot abide anarchists, conspiracy theorists, anti-vaxxers and neo-nazis, I think it is contemptible to label people as 'stupid, mad or fanatical' or all three just BECAUSE THEY HAVE A DIFFERENT VIEW than the one you want them to have. To construct a survey that you claim proves your hypothesis that 'leftie, righties, climate changers, extinction rebels' are all low IQ morons and probably insane, is a disgraceful misuse of statistics.

But you are a conspiracy theorist.

 

[MarkCorrigan]

Vixen I have provided the appropriate quote to prove to you that I do indeed own the book, now please provide the page number for your claim as I have requested.

 

[junkshop]

Well Vixen? Come on, you've actually provided a claimed reference for your abject wrongness and it's in a book that I own, so what page please?

Prove it. What are the first six words on page 182?

"Milda Bendrich and her daughter were..."

That's page 182 on the Kindle version, of course right below an image of a diver at the wreck of the Wilhelm Gustloff. Alternatively you might be asking for the caption to the image since that comes before the main text, in which case it's "The wreck of the Wilhelm Gustloff on the seabed today"

Now you pony up. Give me the page.

Vixen I have provided the appropriate quote to prove to you that I do indeed own the book, now please provide the page number for your claim as I have requested.

Come on Vixen,

Fair's fair, MarkCorrigan gave you the proof you demanded, so answer the question.

 

[Axxman300]

Here's the root of the MS Estonia CT...

The ship sank in rough seas, the crew didn't perform well, and there was a design problem with the bow-visor.

At the time of the sinking, "stolen" Russian military gear and or technology was being smuggled out of the former Eastern Block by conglomerate of personalities ranging from now-unemployed Soviet officers, to mobsters, to the entire list of western intelligence services.

Like the JFK Assassination in 1963, Lee Oswald shot the President all by himself. But because the Kennedy Administration had been running multiple anti-Castro operations (JMWAVE and Mongoose, etc) out of New Orleans, and Mexico City, two places where Oswald spent time, many lines of inquiry were shut down by the AG(RFK), and the CIA. This lead to charges of a coverup to hide a larger conspiracy.

The same seems to be the case with the MS Estonia. Sweden's actions and choices seem shady, and there might have been sensitive Russian goodies onboard the ship when it sank. But, like with the JFK/Cuba material, the - possible - smuggling is a peripheral topic that had nothing to do with the bow-visor getting knocked off in heavy seas. And just as many people can't swallow the fact that a nobody-loser like Oswald killed an icon like JFK all alone, some people can't get past the idea that the Estonia, like JFK, was a victim of circumstance.

For all the many pages written, Vixen has not been able to provide credible evidence that the JAIC report's final conclusions for the sinking are wrong.

 

[Andy_Ross]

Here's the root of the MS Estonia CT...

The ship sank in rough seas, the crew didn't perform well, and there was a design problem with the bow-visor.

At the time of the sinking, "stolen" Russian military gear and or technology was being smuggled out of the former Eastern Block by conglomerate of personalities ranging from now-unemployed Soviet officers, to mobsters, to the entire list of western intelligence services.

Like the JFK Assassination in 1963, Lee Oswald shot the President all by himself. But because the Kennedy Administration had been running multiple anti-Castro operations (JMWAVE and Mongoose, etc) out of New Orleans, and Mexico City, two places where Oswald spent time, many lines of inquiry were shut down by the AG(RFK), and the CIA. This lead to charges of a coverup to hide a larger conspiracy.

The same seems to be the case with the MS Estonia. Sweden's actions and choices seem shady, and there might have been sensitive Russian goodies onboard the ship when it sank. But, like with the JFK/Cuba material, the - possible - smuggling is a peripheral topic that had nothing to do with the bow-visor getting knocked off in heavy seas. And just as many people can't swallow the fact that a nobody-loser like Oswald killed an icon like JFK all alone, some people can't get past the idea that the Estonia, like JFK, was a victim of circumstance.

For all the many pages written, Vixen has not been able to provide credible evidence that the JAIC report's final conclusions for the sinking are wrong.

Where do Sweden's 'actions and choices' seem shady?

 

[Mojo]

Where do Sweden's 'actions and choices' seem shady?

Inside the heads of conspiracy theorists.

 

[Vixen]

You claimed that the medal was awarded to Svensson “to compensate for being only credited with one rescue in the official JAIC figures.” This applies to the rest of Y64’s crew - they were only credited with one rescue. Why weren’t they compensated?

Svensson, by the way, is actually credited with seven rescues, as you would know if you had been reading this thread.

Exactly. Only Svensson got a medal.

Why?

 

[Jack by the hedge]

Exactly. Only Svensson got a medal.



Why?

Because it was for what he actually did and not for some imaginary earlier flight of Y64.

Simple, isn't it?

 

[Mojo]

Exactly. Only Svensson got a medal.

Why?

Again, this is precisely the point that your conspiracy theory fails to address. You claim that the medal was awarded to Svensson “to compensate for being only credited with one rescue in the official JAIC figures.” Why did Svensson, who is credited with seven rescues, need compensation for only being credited with one rescue, and the rest of the crew of Y64, who were credited with one rescue, not need compensation?

 

[Vixen]

His job according to you was to fly a secret mission to kidnap the officers from a ship that had just sunk.

Why wasn't he rewarded with a medal to keep his mouth shut?
What about the rest of the aircrew or the ground staff that prepared the helicopter?

Why is the rescue man the only one that needed bribing with a medal?

Don't put words in my mouth. What I think likely happened is that the Swedish helicopter/s arrived promptly as commanded, as per protocol, as logged by Sweden MRCC operations at 0202, and advised to Silja Europa by Turku MRCC at 0227 that 'the Swedish helicopter will be here in ten minutes'. As these senior officers were billeted together in the forward cabins on decks 5 or 6, adjacent to the Voronins and the retired sea captain, who all escaped, no problem, thanks to being near the life-saving equipment and not needing to scramble up narrow stairwells, IMV some or all or all of them almost certainly survived. Ask yourself, how come the bodies the divers came across on the bridge or in the sixth deck and fourth/fifth deck cabins were never publicly identified because you can be sure the police and marine investigator bods will certainly want to know where each of the ship's officers were! It is not as if they were unidentifiable. So we can assume reasonably that these guys escaped together in a life boat, knew how to send SOS flares, attracted the attention of the first helicopter/s and were consequentially rescued, taken to Huddinge, as the Turku OHG Super Puma did not arrive until circa 0300 to bring people up to the decks of Silja, Symphony, Isabella and Mariella, so fly straight to Huddinge, Stockholm from where the nurse and doctor were picked up to return to the scene. Obviously, Svensson couldn't possibly know who he was rescuing in advance. Not his job.

 

[Steve]

Because it was for what he actually did and not for some imaginary earlier flight of Y64.

Simple, isn't it?

C'mon! If it was actually simple these forums would be shorter by about 10,000 posts. Has Vixen not shown that the complexity of the conspiracy surrounding the sinking of the Estonia makes the *9-11 conspirators* look like rank amateurs? There is absolutely nothing about the sinking that is simple. Every minute detail must be questioned. The awarding of medals, or lack thereof, could be the mistake that blows the whole thing wide open and makes the entire world agree that Vixen, and only Vixen, has seen the whole truth right from the beginning.

 

[Vixen]

I've highlighted the relevant category



What about the following quote? How contemptible is it?


You've provided all the proof I need.

Not faithfully being fully satisfied with the JAIC report does not make it a 'conspiracy theory'.

 

[Vixen]

It's notable that he was not last sighted on the Mariella. Whatever your fantasy version may be of what became of Piht, you do not have a single eyewitness who saw him after the sinking.

Piht is mentioned in the list of survivors of Estlines in Tallinn on September 28, 1994 at number 13 at 13.03 at Turku University Central Hospital. On the same day, Turku's maritime director Erik Mörd said that Avo Piht had been transported by car to Helsinki. 28.9. Estonian radio station KuKu sent an interview to a helicopter crew member. Apparently a Swedish helicopter Y-64. the interviewee said he saved Avo Piht. When Spiegel TV's Jutta Rabe tried to get an interview tape, the director of the radio station told her that the tape had already been seized by the Estonian security police. Two days later, Reuters interviewed Bengt Stenmark, head of the Department of Water Transport Safety. He also said he had been in contact with Piht after the accident. On October 1, 1994, the Estonian Embassy filed a protest with the Swedish Foreign Ministry over access to information about Estonian passengers. Swedish police had also blocked the Estonian consul from visiting the survivors at Södersjukhus Hospital.

Helsingin Sanomat reported that Piht was due to be interviewed at Turku Hospital and on the following day reported Bengt Stenmark stating that Piht had now been interviewed (this would have been 28.9.1994 when the three PM's visited). Danish and Swedish papers subsequently reported that he had gone missing from a Helsinki Hospital.

Persons in Rostock who knew Piht professionally are adamant they saw him in a German news broadcast, which Jutta Rabe claims was seized by the security services from the tv station.

 

[Vixen]

What do you care? The MS Estonia disaster-CT is nothing more than a parlor game. As are all CTs.

Simply calling something of public concern a 'conspiracy theory' does not make it so. Presumably, if you lived in China, you would be calling the Tiananmen Square massacre a 'conspiracy theory' by your reasoning (if one can call it that).