Cont: The Sinking of MS Estonia: Case Re-opened Part IV

[Vixen]

Do you really not understand the term "administrators" in this context? Really?

(Hint: "administrators" here means, very clearly, that these were back-office functionaries: HR, finance, facilities, etc. It means that they were not investigators. If they had been investigators, they would not have been referred to as "administrators")

Seriously? How incredibly ignorant. So according to you, doctors and nurses have a higher social status than a Hospital Administrator and the head of M15 is a mere 'back office' lackey compared to some aspiring spook on a need-to-know basis in a 'cell'. Thanks for the fascinating insight into how you perceive the world.

FYI the fact they worked in the Administrative Offices DOES NOT mean they are 'back office functionaries: HR, finance, facilities, etc.' I have worked in the Civil Service and I can assure you they are extremely well paid in the higher grades.

 

[Andy_Ross]

Seriously? How incredibly ignorant. So according to you, doctors and nurses have a higher social status than a Hospital Administrator and the head of M15 is a mere 'back office' lackey compared to some aspiring spook on a need-to-know basis in a 'cell'. Thanks for the fascinating insight into how you perceive the world.

FYI the fact they worked in the Administrative Offices DOES NOT mean they are 'back office functionaries: HR, finance, facilities, etc.' I have worked in the Civil Service and I can assure you they are extremely well paid in the higher grades.

Where did anybody say any of that?

 

[MarkCorrigan]

Do you really think that the head of MI5 would be described as an administrator? I think it is you who are showing their ignorance.

The people on the Estonia were admin. They may well have been important admin and well paid, but they were not officers.

 

[MarkCorrigan]

Also, why do you persist in putting words in people's mouths? What do you think that says about your integrity and reading comprehension?

 

[Vixen]

Maybe I should add a couple of comments to this one.

When you setup a conference in Sweden and want to get away from the office to be able to work undisturbed, you have a couple of options. There are many conference organizers that have good places setup around Sweden, were they offer both conference facilities as well as lodging and food.

However, the cruise ships running across the Baltics do also offer these facilities, and quite often at a lower cost. With the added benefit being able to do some sightseeing, and being allowed to purchase tax free alcoholics (a BIG thing in Sweden!), these kind of conference trips are quite popular.

Seriously? On Deck 6 where a relatively modest 'Junior Suite' costs €1,620? (As compared to a B-Travel Class which is only €99?)

Sure it might have been 'cheap' for a whole party of people but to claim that these were necessarily a bunch of junior staff out on a jolly is not quite true.

We know that some of this 'administrative police' group were in the luxury cabins because divers went there specifically to retrieve police documents and effects.

 

[Andy_Ross]

Seriously? On Deck 6 where a relatively modest 'Junior Suite' costs €1,620? (As compared to a B-Travel Class which is only €99?)

Sure it might have been 'cheap' for a whole party of people but to claim that these were necessarily a bunch of junior staff out of a jolly is not quite true.

We know that some of this 'administrative police' group were in the luxury cabins because divers went there specifically to retrieve police documents and effects.

Again who has said any of that?

 

[carlitos]

Just chiming in to say that I myself have booked and participated in group conferences at both Gothenburg and on a North Sea cruise. The ship is a tempting option - your meeting and accommodation and dining are all self-enclosed, and the scenery changes without the hassle of transportation.

News flash - if you book a large group on a ship, they will comp you some upgrades to suites.

 

[Here_to_learn]

Seriously? On Deck 6 where a relatively modest 'Junior Suite' costs €1,620? (As compared to a B-Travel Class which is only €99?)

Sure it might have been 'cheap' for a whole party of people but to claim that these were necessarily a bunch of junior staff out on a jolly is not quite true.

We know that some of this 'administrative police' group were in the luxury cabins because divers went there specifically to retrieve police documents and effects.

What on earth are you going on about? Where have I claimed that they are a "bunch of junior staff out on a jolly"?

I described what their conference was about, and I linked to an article where one of the participants that survived is interviewed.

What you are doing is the "straw man" type argumentation, where you put words in my mouth to argue with. Stop doing that. Reply to what I actually have written, and try to understand the meaning of it, and how it affects your argumentation.

And remember, a conference is about lodging, food, conference facilities, as well as having good arrangements outside of the active conference hours. Total cost of the conference is what matters.

 

[Vixen]

What on earth are you going on about? Where have I claimed that they are a "bunch of junior staff out on a jolly"?

I described what their conference was about, and I linked to an article where one of the participants that survived is interviewed.

What you are doing is the "straw man" type argumentation, where you put words in my mouth to argue with. Stop doing that. Reply to what I actually have written, and try to understand the meaning of it, and how it affects your argumentation.

And remember, a conference is about lodging, food, conference facilities, as well as having good arrangements outside of the active conference hours. Total cost of the conference is what matters.

AIUI the conference took place in Tallinn, not on the ship.

 

[Vixen]

We already know that there was an entirely innocent and innocuous reason for those police employees to have been aboard that ship that night.

Their presence on the ship had nothing whatsoever to do with anything nefarious, underhand, secret or clandestine. That exists entirely in your imagination (plus, perhaps, the imagination of CT fellow travellers). Your contention that their presence/numbers must somehow indicate that there was something fishy going on.... is laughably bogus.

Nobody said they were doing anything 'clandestine'.

We do know, however that the KSI, CIA and MI6 were helping the Estonians to develop their own intelligence agency after having kicked out the KGB and GRU.

That is not to say that this particular group had any involvement in it. Nor is it to say they did not.

 

[Here_to_learn]

AIUI the conference took place in Tallinn, not on the ship.

Citation needed.

 

[Vixen]

Do you know if there is a transcript or translation of that press conference? I assumed, since Vixen never provided direct quotes of what Bildt said, that Bildt didn't say what Vixen claimed. However, the only sources I could find when I searched were

1. Various conspiracy theorists saying things like, "At the press conference just hours after the sinking, Carl Bildt confidently declared it was the bow visor," with no direct quotes or sources provided,
2. Video of the press conference on YouTube, with no transcript, subtitles or translation.

Would be good to have his words translated into English.

The JAIC was the appointed body and thus, it was Kari Lehtola on behalf of Bildt, Aho and Laar, who acted as spokesman for the three nations at that press conference, in his JAIC function. When an investigation is going on, all comments and questions come and go to the investigator's and usually there is a nominated spokesperson.

 

[Vixen]

Nope, that’s the 1998 Rome Statute of the International Criminal Court again, which we have already established does not say that Sweden was disappearing people. You cited the “Treaty 1988 (Criminal Law)”, also referring to it as the “Rome Treaty 1988”.

ETA: I suppose I’d better remind you what your claim was:

Yes, I put 'Criminal Law' in brackets to distinguish it from other types of treaty.

 

[zooterkin]

Yes, I put 'Criminal Law' in brackets to distinguish it from other types of treaty.

So exactly which treaty did you mean?

 

[Vixen]

So exactly which treaty did you mean?

https://www.icc-cpi.int/resource-library/documents/rs-eng.pdf

 

[GlennB]

So exactly which treaty did you mean?

So far she's stated the wrong year and directed people to sections of the document that have nothing to do with crime, so it's hard to tell whether we'll ever learn what the hell she's talking about.

 

[Steve]

Where did anybody say any of that?

It is the idea of exactly one person, who said it right here:

Seriously? How incredibly ignorant. So according to you, doctors and nurses have a higher social status than a Hospital Administrator and the head of M15 is a mere 'back office' lackey compared to some aspiring spook on a need-to-know basis in a 'cell'. Thanks for the fascinating insight into how you perceive the world.

FYI the fact they worked in the Administrative Offices DOES NOT mean they are 'back office functionaries: HR, finance, facilities, etc.' I have worked in the Civil Service and I can assure you they are extremely well paid in the higher grades.

Again who has said any of that?

That same one person, right here:

Seriously? On Deck 6 where a relatively modest 'Junior Suite' costs €1,620? (As compared to a B-Travel Class which is only €99?)

Sure it might have been 'cheap' for a whole party of people but to claim that these were necessarily a bunch of junior staff out on a jolly is not quite true.

We know that some of this 'administrative police' group were in the luxury cabins because divers went there specifically to retrieve police documents and effects.

 

[JesseCuster]

Seriously? How incredibly ignorant. So according to you, doctors and nurses have a higher social status than a Hospital Administrator and the head of M15 is a mere 'back office' lackey compared to some aspiring spook on a need-to-know basis in a 'cell'. Thanks for the fascinating insight into how you perceive the world.

Why in god's name are you babbling on about? How could you possibly have read that into anything anybody's said?

 

[zooterkin]

https://www.icc-cpi.int/resource-library/documents/rs-eng.pdf

No, that's the same as last time, so Mojo's post still applies:

Asked and answered.

If you want to know more you can read about it on wiki.

Nope, that’s the 1998 Rome Statute of the International Criminal Court again, which we have already established does not say that Sweden was disappearing people. You cited the “Treaty 1988 (Criminal Law)”, also referring to it as the “Rome Treaty 1988”.

ETA: I suppose I’d better remind you what your claim was:

That's what happened two to Egyptian suspected terrorists in Sweden in 2002 IIRC. They were 'disappeared'.

The fact there is a Treaty 1988 (Criminal Law) that forbids the disappearance of suspects, must mean that it had been happening.

Try again.

 

[GlennB]

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