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Cont: The Sinking of MS Estonia: Case Re-opened Part IV

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Vixen said:
Well, no. If you imagine the sea surface is some way above the diameter, representing the horizon, on our imaginary circle, then it is apparent that the sea encompasses part of the hull submerged in the water. Thus, it can be readily seen that even a small list of 40° - 45° will have the side touching the sea surface and if it capsize at this point by 90 ° it would already be well on the way of having turtled already.

Justice Sheen says The Herald of Free Enterprise had already turned "more than 90 °" and had come to rest on a sand bar that was at 136°. The ship had already turtled past the point of negative stability but had been slightly rotated back to come to rest at 136° on its port side beam ends and the starboard side sticking out of the shallow water.
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You're sooooo far away on your ignorant misunderstanding of all this. It's embarrassing. You have no idea what you're talking about.

And a list of 40°-45°, in anything but a sailing yacht, is a catastrophic list. It would constitute a capsize in most ships, including the Estonia. But it's irrelevant in the context of your hilarious efforts to explain all of this. As for your "even a small list will have the side touching the sea surface" nonsense.... the side is already touching the sea surface. Any list will necessarily cause more of the "side of the ship" to touch the sea surface than before. If you want to have a conversation about freeboard that's another matter. But for any reasonable-sized ship, a permanent list of anything over around 20° would be deemed critical and outside the design parameters of the vessel. Not for the reasons you think, though.

Perhaps someone else will (wearily) try to explain all of this to you. I really can't be bothered at this point - it's like herding cats (of blessed memory).
 
Vixen said:
Think about it. There were 70 Stockholm Police on board. Stockholm being the capital I am guessing the elite. Some possibly SäPo, similar to the UK's MI5.

Do you really think they would be happy with a 'bow visor fell off' story from Day One?

Get real! In reality no stone would be left unturned to bring the culprits to justice, if any. You can be sure of that.

So OBVIOUSLY labelled 'Classified' for whatever reason, and the public handed a The Herald of Free Enterprise Mk II soporific.
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LMAOOOOOOO

How the hell have you jumped to the conclusion that since the ship was bound for Stockholm, this somehow means the police aboard the ship were probably "the elite"???!

And....uhhh.... the reason they were "happy with a "bow visor fell off" story from day one" was.....wait for it..... because 1) there was credible and reliable witness testimony from day one that this was what happened; 2) once educated/experienced people were aware of this witness testimony, they knew very well that it was more than capable of having been the (sole) cause of this disaster; and 3) the subsequent investigation, having examined the disaster carefully and expertly, determined that the sinking was indeed caused (solely) by the catastrophic detachment of the bow visor (and the consequent catastrophic failure of the bow ramp).
 
Captain_Swoop said:
Why would you think this?

A ship can sit at 40 degrees of heel without turning all the way over if flooding is stopped.
A ship can be at 40 degrees and flood until it sinks without going any further over.

As you can see from the Clinometer examples, they both go further than 40 and the US Nave one goes over to 60.
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I did my sail training on one of the estimable old schooners of the UK's Sail Training Association (not to blow my own saxophone, but I did so on a scholarship from amazing Sir Robin Knox-Johnston).

We departed Southampton and sailed out into the Solent, straight into a Force 8 westerly, which was hitting us beam on as we tried to navigate round the IoW. Even with heavily trimmed sails, we were heeling at between 30° and 55°. Suffice it to say that dinner was very difficult to eat that evening - but surprisingly easy to bring up again.....
 
LondonJohn said:
You're sooooo far away on your ignorant misunderstanding of all this. It's embarrassing. You have no idea what you're talking about.

And a list of 40°-45°, in anything but a sailing yacht, is a catastrophic list.
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You need to differentiate between a list, a heel and a roll.
A sailing yacht will heel over with the wind pushing the sail and any ship can roll to 45 degrees and recover because of wave action. These are temporary conditions. Both of these are 'lists' but in normal use the term 'list' means an angle of lean when no external forces are acting. Usually because of badly stowed cargo or flooding.
 
Vixen said:
The true cause of the accident which almost certainly is linked to the smuggling of soviet space and military secrets, which Sweden admitted to ten years later.
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Oh mannnnnnnn.

You really believe that, do you?
 
Mojo said:
Sheen J said it “came to rest on a heading of 136°“.

When he talked about the Herald floating “more or less on her beam ends”, what position was he saying it would have been in?
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Ahahahaha I glaze over at Vixen's attempts by now, so I missed that zinger of confusion between a heading and a list angle :D

But were there any turtles in his honour's conclusion? Inquiring minds need to know!
 
Vixen said:
In Sweden and Finland the intelligence services come under the police. I should have said, Scotland Yard as a better analogy.

It is a fact there were 70 Stockholm Police on board, only about four of five survived.

If that is not grounds for suspicion of sabotage, I don't know what is.
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It's not grounds for suspicion of sabotage. I do know what is. And it's not that. And it's not anything at all insofar as this particular disaster is concerned.
 
Here_to_learn said:
Ha ha!

The Police on board Estonia were all civilians on a union conference. The conference was about planning for the upcoming reorganisation of the police force.

These kind of posts from you really expose how får from reality you are, and how absolutely nothing posted by you can be trusted.
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I think I shall keep your "får from reality" to use when I wish to refer to the special kind of Nordic wrong that has been repeatedly demonstrated within this thread by one Nordic commentator in particular :p
 
Here_to_learn said:
Ha ha!

The Police on board Estonia were all civilians on a union conference. The conference was about planning for the upcoming reorganisation of the police force.

These kind of posts from you really expose how får from reality you are, and how absolutely nothing posted by you can be trusted.
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Wait! Sorry, are you trying to claim these police personnel were some kind of bunch of low level cleaners and filing clerks?

Explain how come quite a few of them were occupying the luxury Deck 6 cabins, along side Piht, the elderly sea captain and his wife and Voronin, if, as you imply they were minnows (so to speak).

Mr Tom Johnsson, a civilian employee for the Stockholm police, survived but most of his 64 colleagues, representing almost the entire administration of the Swedish capital's police force, perished.

Ronnie Bergqvist - Policeman ST Section

Maria Fägersten - Policewoman ST Section

Only a few police survived.

Ewa, 31, Sweden; Ronnie, 41, Sweden; Maria, 34, Sweden; Tom, 33, Sweden

There were 70 people on board from the Stockholm police. Only four of them survived.

The Swedish police suffered a huge loss in the accident, as 70 men and women from the Stockholm County Police Department had gathered in Estonia. Only a few of them survived. This is how they reported the events in the public documents of the Estonia investigation.

Ewa got up all the way with her cabin buddies.

"When we came to the seventh deck, I saw an older woman sitting there bloody with a man."

Ewa thought they were both retired.

Tom, too, was in his cabin, from which he escaped wearing only underpants and a shirt. Maria and Ronnie were in the ship's restaurants, where after midnight there were still perhaps a dozen members of the police department.
“Many had already gone to bed,” Maria said.

Ronnie tried to help other people climb the stairs when he had actually gotten higher. At the same time, he lost contact with his colleagues. Maria didn't know how she managed to get up the sloping floor to the outside deck.

"I don't know what happened then. When I regained consciousness, I was on the life raft."
 
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Axxman300 said:
Please list the countries who had threatened Sweden with lethal force in the months, weeks, and days before the sinking of MS Estonia.

Cite the public declarations of anti-Swedish hostilities. All of them.
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Well, there was this Corsican guy who kept scratching his navel. May have been a bit before the Estonia disaster, though.
 
Captain_Swoop said:
You need to differentiate between a list, a heel and a roll.
A sailing yacht will heel over with the wind pushing the sail and any ship can roll to 45 degrees and recover because of wave action. These are temporary conditions. Both of these are 'lists' but in normal use the term 'list' means an angle of lean when no external forces are acting. Usually because of badly stowed cargo or flooding.
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Oh yes, I know the difference. I was just amalgamating the two for the purposes of a generalised discussion around angular deviation.
 
Vixen said:
Wait! Sorry, are you trying to claim these police personnel were some kind of bunch of low level cleaners and filing clerks?

Explain how come quite a few of them were occupying the luxury Deck 6 cabins, along side Piht, the elderly sea captain and his wife and Voronin, if, as you imply they were minnows (so to speak).

Mr Tom Johnsson, a civilian employee for the Stockholm police, survived but most of his 64 colleagues, representing almost the entire administration of the Swedish capital's police force, perished.

Ronnie Bergqvist - Policeman ST Section

Maria Fägersten - Policewoman ST Section

Only a few police survived.

Ewa, 31, Sweden; Ronnie, 41, Sweden; Maria, 34, Sweden; Tom, 33, Sweden

There were 70 people on board from the Stockholm police. Only four of them survived.

The Swedish police suffered a huge loss in the accident, as 70 men and women from the Stockholm County Police Department had gathered in Estonia. Only a few of them survived. This is how they reported the events in the public documents of the Estonia investigation.

Ewa got up all the way with her cabin buddies.

"When we came to the seventh deck, I saw an older woman sitting there bloody with a man."

Ewa thought they were both retired.

Tom, too, was in his cabin, from which he escaped wearing only underpants and a shirt. Maria and Ronnie were in the ship's restaurants, where after midnight there were still perhaps a dozen members of the police department.
“Many had already gone to bed,” Maria said.

Ronnie tried to help other people climb the stairs when he had actually gotten higher. At the same time, he lost contact with his colleagues. Maria didn't know how she managed to get up the sloping floor to the outside deck.

"I don't know what happened then. When I regained consciousness, I was on the life raft."
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We already know that there was an entirely innocent and innocuous reason for those police employees to have been aboard that ship that night.

Their presence on the ship had nothing whatsoever to do with anything nefarious, underhand, secret or clandestine. That exists entirely in your imagination (plus, perhaps, the imagination of CT fellow travellers). Your contention that their presence/numbers must somehow indicate that there was something fishy going on.... is laughably bogus.
 
Vixen said:
Wait! Sorry, are you trying to claim these police personnel were some kind of bunch of low level cleaners and filing clerks?
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Who said that apart from you?

most of his 64 colleagues, representing almost the entire administration of the Swedish capital's police force, "
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So they were administrators and not Secret Spy Police?
 
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Axxman300 said:
Please list the countries who had threatened Sweden with lethal force in the months, weeks, and days before the sinking of MS Estonia.

Cite the public declarations of anti-Swedish hostilities. All of them.
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From Hesari

9/30/1994 2:00 AM
TALLINN - "Estonia was submerged by an unusual factor: an explosion or an underwater collision." Johannes Johanson, CEO of Laivinja's Estonian side, is confident.

"The incident is otherwise incomprehensible. An Estonian-sized car ferry will not crash even if all the trucks are stacked on the other side of it," says Johanson.


The strangest thing, he thinks, is that the ship turned around in five minutes.


There have been rumors circulating in Estonia that there was a mafia for whom Estline had banned tithing. Johanson denies talk of blackmail.


"Admittedly, a year ago there was a threat along the internal channels that something was still hurting a large passenger ship in the Baltic Sea, but it was in no way targeted at Estline and nothing was required," says Johanson. At that time, the whole thing was forgotten on an empty day and left unexamined.
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HS


A source in February 2001 states, inter alia: (…) The deadly cargo was sent by (…) various military units in Russia or also by Russian officers acting on their own account. On this basis, there is no point (…) in the idea of covering the wreck (…) with a concrete shell. In reality, it is not (…) a question of securing grave peace, but rather of avoiding possible pollution of large areas of the Baltic Sea. There is no information (…) on the amount and containment of radioactive substances. (…) ” <If the “confidential information” in question (No. 3394 of 20 February 2001) is true, in Estonia on Tuesday 27.9. and the secret cargo smuggled on Wednesday, September 28, 1994, thus contained at least (1) rocket components; (2) uranium; (3) plutonium; and (4) cobalt. There has also been talk of a ‘miniature power plant’ in connection with secret cargo.
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Drew Wilson

Russian former Soviet officers and KGB men wanted to stop the technology from flowing west and arranged for the ship to sink. The group is known as "Silovikit" and e.g. Putin is part of it, as is part of Russia's current government and military leadership. The goods were exported from Estonia to Stockholm, where there were special customs arrangements for these cargoes. After all, this has even been admitted by a customs officer in an interview a few years ago. They let through the cargo and looked at it only superficially quickly because they had been ordered. The dive images show how a "secret door" has been opened after sinking. All sorts of searches and dives have taken place in the wreck since the sinking. During this videotaped (and later snapped) dive, you can see how a frog man accidentally hits the camera light in the direction of the car deck and immediately escapes. That is, at the same time as the official dive, there were secret dives going on. Other snippets show e.g. air bubbles rising from new holes made with combustion cutters. But e.g. Ole Dammegård believes that Estonia was sunk because there was a conference of police officers on board and that this meeting and the consequences of its meeting were to be prevented. Yes, Estonia had a lot of interesting and obscure things during that cruise.
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source unknown

Erik Rossander, former head of intelligence in Must, told the committee last summer that the transports took place in cooperation with the Estonians. > According to Rossander, Russian military technology was sent from Estonia to Sweden for research, and a written report was sent to Estonia on the results of the research > On this basis, the Committee concludes that the Swedish military intelligence and security service Must may have carried out the operation without the knowledge of the Estonians. > Sepp, who represents the Center Party, believes that Estonia's sinking was specifically related to arms shipments, and therefore information about them has been kept secret.
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Kaleva

There was quite a lot of Cold War stuff going on, even in 1994. The Russians only moved their military out the month before the accident.

Your belief that Sweden was all Pippi Longstockings and gingerbread is sweet.

One authority believes Libyans planted a bomb.
 
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