Cont: The Sinking of MS Estonia: Case Re-opened Part III

[Here_to_learn]

Yes, maybe I was fooled into performing ridiculous looking dance, based on someone just repeating a short sound bite over and over again.

 

[Vixen]

If it didn't fall off how was it so far away?

It obviously came off. The big question is why. Especially in view of the deformations found in the inner metallic structure consistent with a detonation, as confirmed by two experts, one in explosives (Braidwood) and the other in Material Science. Bearing in mind, survivors reported hard bangs/a collision.

 

[Mojo]

It obviously came off. The big question is why. Especially in view of the deformations found in the inner metallic structure consistent with a detonation, as confirmed by two experts, one in explosives (Braidwood) and the other in Material Science. Bearing in mind, survivors reported hard bangs/a collision.

I don’t remember you managing to post anything showing that these experts had concluded that there was an explosion. Can you link to any of the posts where you did? Or alternatively just post the links to their conclusions.

 

[Vixen]

If everyone in Sweden if so familiar with people in their towns or communities or workplaces, then more Swedes would know people who died on the Estonia if they weren't bunched in groups from the same companies, police forces or villages.

Think about it (as you love to say!), if 10 mothers from a village where nearly everyone know each other died, that wouldn't mean that significantly more people knew someone who died on the Estonia than if 1 mother from a village where nearly everyone knew each other died. Those people's friends, relatives and work colleagues are going to overlap so much that groupings of victims like this will mean that less Swedes knew someone who who died in the disaster, not that "degrees of freedom" will mean that more Swedes knew someone.

I don't care how awesome Nordic peoples are in your eyes, no-way everyone who died on the Estonia had over 3,000 people who considered them friends, relatives or colleagues, unless you're really stretching the meaning of friend, relative or colleague.

Even Bildt said he knew an old chum from school. Since I've been back in Finland, I have been amazed at how many people have stopped me in the street, shop and church saying they know me, because they know my family from way back when. They even remember when I was a small kid running around my grandparents' farm. Even a bus driver told me he knew me, even my name. Puzzled, I asked him how, and he explained he was from a neighbouring estate to my folk. In fact, I seem to be related to most of the other landowners around here - families who've been here for centuries, many of them. Even the local parliamentary representative is my second cousin. So yeah, it might be an exaggeration by the popular press but I can well believe one fifth of Swedes knew someone who died on that ferry.

 

[Vixen]

Other than the pair who climbed down the open car ramp, yeah, nobody saw it.

The two guys concerned, Estonian athletes, have complained the JAIC ignored their statement that the car ramp was shut.

 

[Mojo]

It obviously came off. The big question is why. Especially in view of the deformations found in the inner metallic structure consistent with a detonation, as confirmed by two experts, one in explosives (Braidwood) and the other in Material Science. Bearing in mind, survivors reported hard bangs/a collision.

Why are you discounting the sledgehammers?

 

[Vixen]

And yet none of these holes appear in the original dive videos or any of the subsequent dive videos.




Which it was no such thing. AND had it been sabotage, AND the Swedes were covering it up the device would have been removed by their divers.



This was due to the total sum of the evidence, and the fact that metal heats up with the kind of friction caused by a few tons of steel banging away against a few more tons of steel. The metallurgy was explained to you a few times already.




Which was the bow visor, and some very large waves doing their thing. The sea floor in that area has to produce localized rogue waves under the right conditions. The bathymetry screams "slow down in rough seas". And the current investigation's decryption of the water column, and the the unexpected fast current at the bottom reinforces this concept.



The waves (plural) and the captain sailing at flank speed into them.

From HS 5.10.1994, just ONE WEEK after the tragedy, the JAIC announces:

According to the Commission of Inquiry, it appears that since estonia lost its visor, the waves have gradually caused the bow ramp fasteners to give way and the ramp has opened somewhat outwards. It has not yet been possible to determine whether the ramp's fastenings were broken or opened. It is also not yet known whether the detachment of the visor already caused a leak in estonia. According to the Commission's report, it has so far not been possible to point out any faults in the ramp fastening system that would explain why the ramp opened in the sea.

As for the estimated speed:

Estonia's speed riddle for researchers Tulonen Hannele 18.10.1994 2:00 TALLINN - Estonia was about an hour behind schedule when it was forced to go to even tougher seas north of Hiidenmaa. However, the International Commission of Inquiry is not yet aware of the speed of the vessel. In its second interim report, the Commission meeting in Tallinn on Monday considered that the speed of the ship was one of the key issues in the investigation of the cause of the accident. Estonia's normal scheduled travel speed has been 15-16 knots, or about 30 kilometres per hour. According to the Commission, the ship's bow visor was detached at 01:15, when water was seen flowing from the sides of the bow ramp to the car deck. After detaching from the locks, the visor has been able to pout at the bow ramp. The force of the attacks has also failed the ramp locks. The big question mark for the Commission is why the visor's locks were broken. When the absence of the visor was detected, the ship began to be turned downwind. That way, the broken bow should have been left in peace from the fury of the waves.

HS

If the big question mark for the JAIC was why the visor locks were broken, how come the Swedish engineer Stenmark threw the Atlantic lock back onto the seabed? It was claimed to be 'too heavy' for the helicopter but it only weighed about 15kg, a fraction of the weight of a human.


As for the ship hurtling along recklessly, this calls into question who was in control? Where was Captain Andresson?

 

[Vixen]

Have you ever stopped to think that the reason the Swedes and Fins, and Estonians decided to keep elements of the investigation secret was because they suspected sabotage, or at least felt the need to rule it out?

If you bothered to look a it in that lens then everything that followed sort makes sense with the Haliburton divers and so on. Sure, they knew from survivor reports that the visor had been knocked off, but MAYBE they needed to quietly make sure nothing more sinister had happened.

By making public statements about possible sabotage - without evidence - causes unbearable additional pain to the families, and feeds conspiracy loons (we saw this with TWA-800).

Again, in the end, the wreck is right there where it settled, and the visor is gone, and the bow ramp has slipped open again which is evidence of the damage it took when the visor came off. The holes of the starboard side were caused by the impact with the rocks on the sea floor, and subsequent shifting of the hull.

You are blowing smoke to cover for the fact you have no facts.

The police obviously considered it a crime scene. The retrieval of the attaché case in Voronin/Piht's cabin was a police operation. Likewise, I do not think it at all far fetched that key members of the Estonian crew were rescued (early Y64/Y74 - that is why they are reported as having left early in the papers and then having returned later in the evening via Huddinge Hospital 'bringing a doctor and a nurse' because they had already delivered people there). It is quite possible IMV that the chief engineer, chief medical officer and Captain Piht, were arrested and secreted away for in camera trials elsewhere. Of given witness protection, with new identities.

HS reported Piht alive and well but Captain Andresson drowned.

 

[LondonJohn]

Even Bildt said he knew an old chum from school. Since I've been back in Finland, I have been amazed at how many people have stopped me in the street, shop and church saying they know me, because they know my family from way back when. They even remember when I was a small kid running around my grandparents' farm. Even a bus driver told me he knew me, even my name. Puzzled, I asked him how, and he explained he was from a neighbouring estate to my folk. In fact, I seem to be related to most of the other landowners around here - families who've been here for centuries, many of them. Even the local parliamentary representative is my second cousin. So yeah, it might be an exaggeration by the popular press but I can well believe one fifth of Swedes knew someone who died on that ferry.

It might be an exaggeration, but you can well believe it? I see......

(And your rambling stuff about how many people say they know you - together with your apparent obsession with communicating about "your estate" and your family's genealogy and status - is.... completely and utterly irrelevant to the matter at hand)

 

[LondonJohn]

The two guys concerned, Estonian athletes, have complained the JAIC ignored their statement that the car ramp was shut.

No. You (and they, if you're correct in what you say about them) are confusing a) being ignored with b) being heard and noted, but having their testimony discounted because the weight of evidence contradicts what they said.

 

[Vixen]

No it means we are sick of you posting the same, long debunked **** over and over again as though it had never been responded to.
It's enough to make a ******* saint swear.

Wash your mouth out.

Relax, nobody is going to knock on your door and arrest you for daring to think critically. No mighty hand is going to reach down and strike you for daring to criticise the JAIC's scope, methods and conclusions. You are allowed to express a doubt.

 

[Vixen]

1. You do your homework. If you want to use Hummel et al. to backup your claim, then you link to their statements.
2. But I did check, and it turns out that I can't find any of those names in the JAIC report. But that made it clear - you do not have a single JAIC member claiming that they were forbidden to investigate the possibility of sabotage. So your earlier statement is just your claim, with no facts to back it up.

Do google Margus Kurm, then state prosecutor and member of the Estonian JAIC, or Andi Meister, then Estonian Transport Minister and JAIC Head. Even the JAIC psychologist resigned.

Why do you think Kurm organised a private expedition in September 2021 on behalf of the relatives and survivors, sponsored by a media outlet?

 

[LondonJohn]

I don’t remember you managing to post anything showing that these experts had concluded that there was an explosion. Can you link to any of the posts where you did? Or alternatively just post the links to their conclusions.

Hmmmm let's see......

The official conclusion is that the badly-designed and badly-constructed bow visor failed at its bottom lock due to cumulative fatigue and deformation of the lugs, which ultimately broke open when subjected to cumulative stresses in the rough weather on the night of the sinking.

And then.... the shipyard which designed and built that bow visor and its bottom lock..... funds an alternative "investigation" into the cause of the disaster.

I wonder what the shipyard's motivation for funding this "investigation" might be? I wonder what they're hoping their "investigation" will find? I wonder what their experts are expected to find?

It's a genuine mystery

 

[Vixen]

How would that have caused the ship to sink?

Jutta Rabe's team believes there was a series of them.

 

[LondonJohn]

If the big question mark for the JAIC was why the visor locks were broken, how come the Swedish engineer Stenmark threw the Atlantic lock back onto the seabed? It was claimed to be 'too heavy' for the helicopter but it only weighed about 15kg, a fraction of the weight of a human.

You keep making this claim - and I'm not saying it's necessarily incorrect - but
can you remind me of the (reliable) evidence for it please?


(Oh and re the rest of your post, please will you stop going back to your newspaper of choice and its speculative reporting on the disaster? Use primary sources please.)

 

[Here_to_learn]

Do google Margus Kurm, then state prosecutor and member of the Estonian JAIC, or Andi Meister, then Estonian Transport Minister and JAIC Head. Even the JAIC psychologist resigned.



Why do you think Kurm organised a private expedition in September 2021 on behalf of the relatives and survivors, sponsored by a media outlet?

When asked for links to statements you tell me to Google a name. That makes it clear that you have no facts behind your claims.

 

[Vixen]

You keep making this claim - and I'm not saying it's necessarily incorrect - but
can you remind me of the (reliable) evidence for it please?


(Oh and re the rest of your post, please will you stop going back to your newspaper of choice and its speculative reporting on the disaster? Use primary sources please.)

Do read the latest Arikas update (July 2021 expedition) or Kurm (Sept 2021). Both express a desire to find the Atlantic lock. Arikas will do this by magnetic means in Spring 2022, it has reported. Likewise, Kurm planned to find it, report yet to be received.

Do google Stenmark and the Atlantic Lock if you want to check whether it is true he threw it back onto the seabed. It is in the public domain, easily accessible information.

 

[Vixen]

When asked for links to statements you tell me to Google a name. That makes it clear that you have no facts behind your claims.

You can use the 'search' function on top right of the thread to review previous discussion around these issues.

No point in my repeating them in light of your declared stonewall resistance to any question marks.

 

[Here_to_learn]

You can use the 'search' function on top right of the thread to review previous discussion around these issues.



No point in my repeating them in light of your declared stonewall resistance to any question marks.

Again I'm not doing your homework. You claim that the JAIC was not allowed to investigate sabotage. You have not been able to provide a single source that collaborates this. I have quoted the actual JAIC report where they specifically state that thee were tasked with looking at all causes.

Either retract your statement or provide evidence.

 

[Andy_Ross]

It obviously came off. The big question is why. Especially in view of the deformations found in the inner metallic structure consistent with a detonation, as confirmed by two experts, one in explosives (Braidwood) and the other in Material Science. Bearing in mind, survivors reported hard bangs/a collision.

So you are just going to circle back to the stuff we went through in detail earlier in the thread?

That means we can just cut and paste all the refutation to your claims we already used?