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Cont: The Sinking of MS Estonia: Case Re-opened Part III

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If Jutta Rabe's team spotted holes in the bow bulkhead sides...

And yet none of these holes appear in the original dive videos or any of the subsequent dive videos.


and Braidwood spotted what in his expert opinion looked like an unexploded explosive device attached to the bow,

Which it was no such thing. AND had it been sabotage, AND the Swedes were covering it up the device would have been removed by their divers.

together with Ida Westermann more recently identifying possible deformations i the bow - having personally arranged metallurgy laboratory tests - indicating extreme high temperatures/points of high impact, then one has to wonder why the JAIC never investigated this area of possibility,

This was due to the total sum of the evidence, and the fact that metal heats up with the kind of friction caused by a few tons of steel banging away against a few more tons of steel. The metallurgy was explained to you a few times already.


especially when so many of the passenger and crew survivors mentioned hearing a series of bangs and/or collision sensations, together with the devastatingly rapid sinking.

Which was the bow visor, and some very large waves doing their thing. The sea floor in that area has to produce localized rogue waves under the right conditions. The bathymetry screams "slow down in rough seas". And the current investigation's decryption of the water column, and the the unexpected fast current at the bottom reinforces this concept.

Instead, from Day One, we are told a wave was responsible.

The waves (plural) and the captain sailing at flank speed into them.
 
This is what the JAIC did here. It was decided immediately this was top level highly classified material and ...

Have you ever stopped to think that the reason the Swedes and Fins, and Estonians decided to keep elements of the investigation secret was because they suspected sabotage, or at least felt the need to rule it out?

If you bothered to look a it in that lens then everything that followed sort makes sense with the Haliburton divers and so on. Sure, they knew from survivor reports that the visor had been knocked off, but MAYBE they needed to quietly make sure nothing more sinister had happened.

By making public statements about possible sabotage - without evidence - causes unbearable additional pain to the families, and feeds conspiracy loons (we saw this with TWA-800).

Again, in the end, the wreck is right there where it settled, and the visor is gone, and the bow ramp has slipped open again which is evidence of the damage it took when the visor came off. The holes of the starboard side were caused by the impact with the rocks on the sea floor, and subsequent shifting of the hull.

You are blowing smoke to cover for the fact you have no facts.
 
If Jutta Rabe's team spotted holes in the bow bulkhead sides and Braidwood spotted what in his expert opinion looked like an unexploded explosive device attached to the bow, together with Ida Westermann more recently identifying possible deformations i the bow - having personally arranged metallurgy laboratory tests - indicating extreme high temperatures/points of high impact, then one has to wonder why the JAIC never investigated this area of possibility, especially when so many of the passenger and crew survivors mentioned hearing a series of bangs and/or collision sensations, together with the devastatingly rapid sinking.

Instead, from Day One, we are told a wave was responsible.

Are we back to this again?

Is the idea that you keep recycling the same stuff we explained and debunked before until people get sick of responding so you can claim victory?
 
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When you go potty-mouthed we know it means you have lost the argument.

No it means we are sick of you posting the same, long debunked **** over and over again as though it had never been responded to.
It's enough to make a ******* saint swear.
 
She clearly meant "slew." It's one thing to make a typo, but another thing to "correct" it to something even less literate. I predict ten pages of her backpedaling and trying to say she was somehow right all along.

A collective noun for detectives maybe?
 
This was due to the total sum of the evidence, and the fact that metal heats up with the kind of friction caused by a few tons of steel banging away against a few more tons of steel. The metallurgy was explained to you a few times already.

Plus the fact that the ship was of welded construction.
 
Are we back to this again?

Is the idea that you keep recycling the same stuff we explained and debunked before until people get sick of responding so you can claim victory?
We never really left. But I asked her a question that she either knows the answer to or not. She clearly doesn't, and is slowly learning not to bluff. So it's her roundabout way of saying "I don't know."
 
As the JAIC never investigated the possibility of sabotage, then it is a moot point.
Do you have any documents or reports from JAIC members where they are specifically forbidden to investigate that aspect? Any whistlelblowers?
A whole sleuth of them. The Estonian side of the JAIC claimed they had information withheld from them. Look up Werner Hummel, investigator for the ship builders Meyer-Werft. Look up ex-Royal Navy military and explosives expert Robin Braidwood, Professor Ulfversson, Professor Ida Westermann, etcetera.
1. You do your homework. If you want to use Hummel et al. to backup your claim, then you link to their statements.
2. But I did check, and it turns out that I can't find any of those names in the JAIC report. But that made it clear - you do not have a single JAIC member claiming that they were forbidden to investigate the possibility of sabotage. So your earlier statement is just your claim, with no facts to back it up.
 
1. You do your homework. If you want to use Hummel et al. to backup your claim, then you link to their statements.
2. But I did check, and it turns out that I can't find any of those names in the JAIC report. But that made it clear - you do not have a single JAIC member claiming that they were forbidden to investigate the possibility of sabotage. So your earlier statement is just your claim, with no facts to back it up.


I hope I don't detect a note of surprise on your part there......

:p
 
This thread is worthwhile because I've learned a lot of interesting things about ships, sailing, maritime procedures, radios, radar, NATO, Sweden, SAR, signal buoys, and even a dash or maritime law.

The Estonia sinking is a tragedy. I think the second investigation is worthwhile for a number of reasons. My personal interest stems from the fact that it's always productive when scientific equipment is put to work in the undersea environment because of all the peripheral data recovered which could help marine science in some way down the road (as almost all deep sea research data does). In this case, the data shows a clear correlation the hull breaches, and the rock outcrops. next April they will dive on the wreck, and photograph even more. It's not over, but I doubt the story will change.
 
If Jutta Rabe's team spotted holes in the bow bulkhead sides and Braidwood spotted what in his expert opinion looked like an unexploded explosive device attached to the bow,

How would that have caused the ship to sink?
 
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This thread is worthwhile because I've learned a lot of interesting things about ships, sailing, maritime procedures, radios, radar, NATO, Sweden, SAR, signal buoys, and even a dash or maritime law.

The Estonia sinking is a tragedy. I think the second investigation is worthwhile for a number of reasons. My personal interest stems from the fact that it's always productive when scientific equipment is put to work in the undersea environment because of all the peripheral data recovered which could help marine science in some way down the road (as almost all deep sea research data does). In this case, the data shows a clear correlation the hull breaches, and the rock outcrops. next April they will dive on the wreck, and photograph even more. It's not over, but I doubt the story will change.


I agree with you, up to a certain point.

I wholeheartedly agree that more information and more analysis is (with a minuscule number of exceptions) always better. And I also strongly believe that those involved in any investigation-based report should always welcome - rather than fear - the report being re-evaluated and/or the investigation being reopened. After all, the goal of every honest, competently-run investigation is to get to the truth of the matter: if more investigation will lead to a fuller understanding of the truth, then obviously there should be no objection. And frankly, even if more investigation (perhaps with more sophisticated analytical techniques than were available for the original investigation, or if new information has emerged) results in an amendment - or even overturning - of the original conclusions, the original investigators should similarly have no objections if their overarching goal is a search for the truth (as it should be).

However.....

...the reopening of any investigation has costs. Not just financial costs. But also the emotional (and sometimes reputational) costs related to reopening old wounds, causing fresh grief. If there's the real potential for genuine value in reopening an investigation, in terms of making a substantial move closer to the truth as it relates to the incident, then this should usually take precedent over those costs.

But in those situations where a reopening of an investigation really won't make any material difference to our (society's, government's, industry's, victims', relatives') understanding of what happened and why, then I have to question what its true net value actually is. In this particular instance, I just don't believe that the potential benefit to our core knowledge/understanding of this disaster (including, of course, its cause(s)) that might realistically be gleaned from a broad reopening of the investigation comes anywhere close to the notional sum of all costs associated with a re-investigation. It'd be (IMO) net-value-negative, in other words.

If things are strictly limited to an investigation and evaluation of the now-revealed damage to the starboard hull - together with the now-revealed part of the sea bed upon which that section of the starboard hull had been resting - then I'd say it'd be a fair and proportionate use of costs. But that aside, there's absolutely nothing in existence in 2021 that casts any serious doubt at all on the official explanation of how and why this ship sank. The JAIC already figured that one out satisfactorily, and with a very high degree of confidence, some 25 years ago.
 
They're measured collectively by weight. The customary unit is a Pinkerton.

As you presumably know, the Pinkertonian scale only applies if they (the detective) are both professional and real, otherwise the Green Raft (multiple) or Green Penguin (singular) classification is standard. The obvious problem with this system being the lack of specificity and/or countability.1

1I am unsure if this is a real word, but what I meant (obviously) was that the 'Green' system only acknowledges [one] or [more than one], which is not very useful.
 
But in those situations where a reopening of an investigation really won't make any material difference to our (society's, government's, industry's, victims', relatives') understanding of what happened and why, then I have to question what its true net value actually is. In this particular instance, I just don't believe that the potential benefit to our core knowledge/understanding of this disaster (including, of course, its cause(s)) that might realistically be gleaned from a broad reopening of the investigation comes anywhere close to the notional sum of all costs associated with a re-investigation. It'd be (IMO) net-value-negative, in other words.

If things are strictly limited to an investigation and evaluation of the now-revealed damage to the starboard hull - together with the now-revealed part of the sea bed upon which that section of the starboard hull had been resting - then I'd say it'd be a fair and proportionate use of costs. But that aside, there's absolutely nothing in existence in 2021 that casts any serious doubt at all on the official explanation of how and why this ship sank. The JAIC already figured that one out satisfactorily, and with a very high degree of confidence, some 25 years ago.

Oh, the whole thing is a waste of time. The original investigation got the cause of the sinking correct. And I understand that -some - grieving family members find it hard to believe that a daisy-chain of factors lined up to cause the ship to sink, but then as with all conspiracies, they embrace an entirely more unrealistic chain of events instead (submarines, sabotage, etc). This new investigation is mostly a local political fishing expedition, this is a different era where governments try to give the appearance of searching for justice, and the way the original investigation was conducted rubbed enough people in those countries the wrong way. Enough so to garner consensus to bank-roll this new operation.

And if you've been following the news stories, the CT crowd is already setting up their base for The Estonia CT 2.0. The only reason they're doing so is that it is obvious the story will not change.
 
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