The Sinking of MS Estonia: Case Re-opened Part II

[Vixen]

I feel sad each time there is a comparison made with the Estonia disaster to something the Soviets did in WWII, or something that happened to a warship of any kind. Russians sinking a ship full of escaping German soldiers in WWII is not proof of anything beyond how much rage they had toward the Third Reich for all they had endured combined with the desire to crush Hitler and end the war.

At no time during the Cold War did the Soviets engage in mass murder to stop stolen hardware that was out of their borders.

We have examples of Ro-Ro Ferries rolling over, and the Estonia's sister ship had been pulled in for repairs on it's bow clamps...the same ones which failed on Estonia. These are the only relevant comparisons, and they show a distinct trend. Then when you look at the MANY changes to Ro-Ro ferries mandated across Europe after the disaster and the cause of the sinking becomes clear.

Oh, and all three "holes" in the Estonia are on the starboard side, the same side which impacted the sea floor. I'm not a scientist but I'm not immune to the obvious.

The Soviets torpedoed ships carrying ordinary civilian refugees fleeing East Prussia before the Russians arrived, looting, raping, dismembering and murdering local villagers. These were not military on board as all able-bodied men between age 15 - 55 were under conscription orders and would have been immediately shot for turning up as a 'refuge'. There were thesick and injured, sure, but the vast majority were women and children - as they had priority - and ordinary people. Sure, the Germans blacked out the news of the Wilhelm Gustloff, 'Steuben' and 'Goya' sinkings as well as the Russians downing aircraft carrying hundreds of children. It doesn't make it OK. Yes, everybody absolutely hated the Germans for what they did in WWII, especially the Russians in Leningrad/St Petersburg region, quite understandably. However, two wrongs do NOT make a right.

As for ro-ro ferries rolling over, yes, there have been, yet the Jan Heweliusz floated turtle for five days before sinking. The Herald of Free Enterprise and Concordia were steered to a shallower waters - as is the training - and thus ended on their side without disappearing all together. As for all the bow visor problems in the Baltic, not one of them sank. Except for the Estonia.

Of course, the damage will appear on only one side of a vessel if attacked. That is common sense. The Wilhelm Gustloff was approached by Soviet submarine S-13 from its portside, where it fired four torpedoes in pitch fork style, one getting stuck, hitting the bow, the middle and near the stern.

No surprise, then that the major breaches on the Estonia appear to be on the starboard side, coincidentally, the same side in which the violent list of 30° - 40° occurred shortly after the bangs, vibrations and shaking experienced by surviving passengers. That is one double whammy if it also got hammered by a rock on the seabed on the starboard side. Given water acts as a resisting force when things fall into it then its fall was cushioned, as well as being face down, anyway.

 

[Andy_Ross]

Privacy laws are very strong here. Hospitals will never discuss patients. However, re the 'missing' Estonian 'survivors': their names do appear on all sorts of official lists, including the pilot logbooks. How did their names get onto these lists at all? How is it possible?

These include senior officers housed on the upper decks near to the escape routes. Chief engineer, chief medical officer, second captain.

What does privacy have to do with passing on information given about the sinking?

Early lists are always confused. It is the middle of the night with a ship sinking and multiple rescuers taking survivors to multiple destinations.

 

[Andy_Ross]

Gish gallop is a form of logical fallacy.

Is it?

Define it then.

 

[Andy_Ross]

The Soviets torpedoed ships carrying ordinary civilian refugees fleeing East Prussia before the Russians arrived, looting, raping, dismembering and murdering local villagers. These were not military on board as all able-bodied men between age 15 - 55 were under conscription orders and would have been immediately shot for turning up as a 'refuge'. There were thesick and injured, sure, but the vast majority were women and children - as they had priority - and ordinary people. Sure, the Germans blacked out the news of the Wilhelm Gustloff, 'Steuben' and 'Goya' sinkings as well as the Russians downing aircraft carrying hundreds of children. It doesn't make it OK. Yes, everybody absolutely hated the Germans for what they did in WWII, especially the Russians in Leningrad/St Petersburg region, quite understandably. However, two wrongs do NOT make a right.

As for ro-ro ferries rolling over, yes, there have been, yet the Jan Heweliusz floated turtle for five days before sinking. The Herald of Free Enterprise and Concordia were steered to a shallower waters - as is the training - and thus ended on their side without disappearing all together. As for all the bow visor problems in the Baltic, not one of them sank. Except for the Estonia.

Of course, the damage will appear on only one side of a vessel if attacked. That is common sense. The Wilhelm Gustloff was approached by Soviet submarine S-13 from its portside, where it fired four torpedoes in pitch fork style, one getting stuck, hitting the bow, the middle and near the stern.

No surprise, then that the major breaches on the Estonia appear to be on the starboard side, coincidentally, the same side in which the violent list of 30° - 40° occurred shortly after the bangs, vibrations and shaking experienced by surviving passengers. That is one double whammy if it also got hammered by a rock on the seabed on the starboard side. Given water acts as a resisting force when things all into it then its fall was cushioned, as well as being face down, anyway.

Are you back to claiming the Estonia was hit by torpedoes from a Russian submarine?

We went through this in detail recently.
In fact just yesterday I posted typical torpedo damage examples.

Guess what, a torpedo does not hit above the waterline, there is no damage consistent with a torpedo hitting the ship.
People would have noticed considerably more than a few banging sounds and bit of a shake.

As for the water 'cushioning the Estonia from falling, it's laughable. Estonia has a mass of many tens of thousands of tons. It is designed to be supported across the entire surface of the hull below the standard waterline. It is not designed to be supported on one section of the hull side. It is not designed to resist the sagging of the ends over a rock.

 

[Vixen]

Just to say the term 'Public Transport' usually refers to passenger services like railways, busses and river ferries. Seagoing ships are not what would be considered 'public transport'

Ro-ro ferries are public transport in Finland and Sweden as we have many many islands. You can travel all the way to Utö from Parainen completely free of charge utilising all the various ferries that will get you there. We have >200,000 lakes in Finland alone on top of the largest archipelago in the world.

Yes, a passenger ferry to Stockholm or Tallinn costs, but only about €15, last I looked.

 

[Andy_Ross]

That doesn't make Estonia 'public transport'

 

[Vixen]

What does privacy have to do with passing on information given about the sinking?

Early lists are always confused. It is the middle of the night with a ship sinking and multiple rescuers taking survivors to multiple destinations.

At least five sets of officials were confused? The ones taking names of the rescued on the Mariella? The pilot logs - come on , they know how many passengers they have in their helicopter and where they were taken - the hospitals, who put up lists, the ferry terminals (OK, so that was received information), the Estonian Embassy, the Red Cross meeting points. The numerous sightings of Captain Piht. The international Arrest Warrant put out for him. The wives being told the exact date and time of the flight their loved ones would be returning on.

 

[Vixen]

That doesn't make Estonia 'public transport'

It was. Anyone could board. However, Estonia is not in the nordic zone where people are free to travel, work and live anywhere in that zone.

Trains and boats and planes: all public transport.

 

[Vixen]

What Professor Ida Westermann Did

I have come across the press release slides of the presentation by Westermann 28 Sept 2021 as to her findings after examining the bow visor.

She includes a short presentation of how a metallurgy examination is performed.

So, switch off your blowtorch, finish off your arc welding - yes, you - it is about to begin.

 

[Vixen]

What Professor Ida Westermann looked at

These are the parts of the bow visor Westermann looked at, as per the press release slides.

 

[Vixen]

What Professor Ida Westermann looked at - II

...continued

 

[Vixen]

What Professor Ida Westermann looked at - III

...continued

Her conclusions.

 

[Vixen]

The Bow Visor Parts that were Examined

These are the specific parts that were examined by Prof Ida Westermann of the bow visor, housed at Müsko in Kronstadt, Sweden.

 

[Andy_Ross]

At least five sets of officials were confused? The ones taking names of the rescued on the Mariella? The pilot logs - come on , they know how many passengers they have in their helicopter and where they were taken - the hospitals, who put up lists, the ferry terminals (OK, so that was received information), the Estonian Embassy, the Red Cross meeting points. The numerous sightings of Captain Piht. The international Arrest Warrant put out for him. The wives being told the exact date and time of the flight their loved ones would be returning on.

Five sets of officials with five lists, a number of pilots taking on survivors, ships and boats taking survivors. Hospitals, ferry terminals, Embassies, Red Cross.

You don't see why there might have been some confusion that night?

What does it have to do with the survivors speaking to the rescuers or hospital staff about what had happened?

 

[Vixen]

The Bow Visor Parts that were Examined II

These are the other parts of the bow visor that Westermann looked at.

Ends.

Hopefully, this now clarifies the temperature issue.

 

[Andy_Ross]

deleted

I was going to comment but I will leave it to the metallurgists in the thread.
I only did a short course 35 years ago.

 

[Vixen]

Five sets of officials with five lists, a number of pilots taking on survivors, ships and boats taking survivors. Hospitals, ferry terminals, Embassies, Red Cross.

You don't see why there might have been some confusion that night?

What does it have to do with the survivors speaking to the rescuers or hospital staff about what had happened?

Imagine you are a sea rescuer. You arrange for someone on board the platform you place your rescued to take their full name and birthdate before transferrig them to their own private cabin until a further helicoptor transfers them to hospital. Already there are four separate points of exchange of information:

1. the diving personnel lowered to the sea to rescue survivor
2. the officer on the fo'c'sle noting name and d.o.b. of incoming survivors
3. the helicopter pilot taking on board survivors to hospital
4. the hospital personnel opening new patient files /accessing current ones

How is it possible to be on all those different lists if a person did not survive?

 

[Andy_Ross]

Imagine you are a sea rescuer. You arrange for someone on board the platform you place your rescued to take their full name and birthdate before transferrig them to their own private cabin until a further helicoptor transfers them to hospital. Already there are four separate points of exchange of information:

1. the diving personnel lowered to the sea to rescue survivor
2. the officer on the fo'c'sle noting name and d.o.b. of incoming survivors
3. the helicopter pilot taking on board survivors to hospital
4. the hospital personnel opening new patient files /accessing current ones

How is it possible to be on all those different lists if a person did not survive?

Because it is a chaotic and confusing situation.
Mistakes always happen similar circumstances.

 

[whoanellie]

...continued

Her conclusions.

nothing about a detonation.
"locally very high temperature" and "two heat sources - one on each side of the plate" do not seem consistent with a detonation.

 

[Steve]

Because it is a chaotic and confusing situation.
Mistakes always happen similar circumstances.

Nah! One thing I have learned from Vixen in this thread is that everything about the sinking was planned to the Nth degree by the thousands of conspirators engaged by their various governments. Absolutely nothing was left to chance.