The Sinking of MS Estonia: Case Re-opened Part II

[Steve]

No, we are claiming you don't know what you are talking about.

Now *this* is a claim well supported by evidence. No further discussion required.

 

[Jack by the hedge]

Looks like it's reset time.

Bildt told the press it looked as if the bow door had failed and you absolutely cannot show that he hadn't been told that was what survivors were saying. The end.

 

[Vixen]

Millions of smugglers just waiting for their chance, undeterred by murderous Russian reactions. So... what was the point of sinking the ship again?

So what would be the point in having a defence force including intelligence agencies if you cannot stop hostile foreign nations stealing your defence and space strategy secrets?


Why would Russia have five fleets of submarines with three subs in each, making up one division, if there is no purpose for them?

Do you really believe human civilisation is still at the stage of hand to hand fighting?

 

[Andy_Ross]

That gish gallop is a hopeless regurgitation of stuff we've already dealt with repeatedly and in no way suggests Estonia was attacked with torpedoes. It absolutely wasn't. Google yourself some photos of ships having torpedo damage repaired and then come back and tell is you think the Estonia suffered three of those.

Here you go.

Mk 48 Torpedo hitting a target ship.
It's an ex RAN Leander class anti submarine frigate.
I was on a couple of them when I was in the RN.

 

[Andy_Ross]

So what would be the point in having a defence force including intelligence agencies if you cannot stop hostile foreign nations stealing your defence and space strategy secrets?


Why would Russia have five fleets of submarines with three subs in each, making up one division, if there is no purpose for them?

Do you really believe human civilisation is still at the stage of hand to hand fighting?

Do you think Russian subs or any subs are there to stop spies?

 

[Vixen]

That gish gallop is a hopeless regurgitation of stuff we've already dealt with repeatedly and in no way suggests Estonia was attacked with torpedoes. It absolutely wasn't. Google yourself some photos of ships having torpedo damage repaired and then come back and tell is you think the Estonia suffered three of those.

You do not know the meaning of 'gish gallop' but you seem to think it sounds good.

Torpedo isn't just a spectacular WWII movie scenario they do come in different magnitudes.

You don't know for sure at this stage what caused the 22m x 4m hole in the hull.

 

[Andy_Ross]

You do not know the meaning of 'gish gallop' but you seem to think it sounds good.

Torpedo isn't just a spectacular WWII movie scenario they do come in different magnitudes.

You don't know for sure at this stage what caused the 22m x 4m hole in the hull.

It certainly wasn't a torpedo as the hole is above the waterline.

What 'magnitudes' do Russian torpedoes come in?

They have a few 'lightweight' torpedo designs with around 100 kg of explosives.

Most are in the 300 - 400 kg range.

Even allowing for an 80kg warhead the damage to a ferry would be considerable.

 

[Jack by the hedge]

So what would be the point in having a defence force including intelligence agencies if you cannot stop hostile foreign nations stealing your defence and space strategy secrets?





Why would Russia have five fleets of submarines with three subs in each, making up one division, if there is no purpose for them?



Do you really believe human civilisation is still at the stage of hand to hand fighting?

They could of course have nuked the Estonia. And they could have gone after the smugglers instead. One of those plans does not get you a visit to the mutant sea bass tank.

 

[Vixen]

Looks like it's reset time.

Bildt told the press it looked as if the bow door had failed and you absolutely cannot show that he hadn't been told that was what survivors were saying. The end.

Engineer Sillaste was the only crew member who had been interviewed by SuPo and the three PM's at that stage and he never mentioned the bow visor falling off as of the date Bildt made his announcement.

Let's face it, Bildt knew of the accident straight away as Swedish defence forces were tracking the ship. Probably giving it a submarine escort due to the stuff on board.

 

[Mojo]

Do you think Russian subs or any subs are there to stop spies?

They are in the movies.

 

[Jack by the hedge]

You do not know the meaning of 'gish gallop' but you seem to think it sounds good.



Torpedo isn't just a spectacular WWII movie scenario they do come in different magnitudes.



You don't know for sure at this stage what caused the 22m x 4m hole in the hull.

Your gish gallop was a scattergun regurgitation of multiple points already dealt with making it too exhausting to bat them all down again one by one.

If you wish to propose an attack by some kind of secret mini torpedo the floor is yours.

Not knowing for certain that the rocks Estonia landed on caused the hole there is not the same thing as being bewildered as to how the hole could have been caused.

 

[Mojo]

You do not know the meaning of 'gish gallop' but you seem to think it sounds good.

Nope.

 

[Jack by the hedge]

Engineer Sillaste was the only crew member who had been interviewed by SuPo and the three PM's at that stage and he never mentioned the bow visor falling off as of the date Bildt made his announcement.



Let's face it, Bildt knew of the accident straight away as Swedish defence forces were tracking the ship. Probably giving it a submarine escort due to the stuff on board.

"Let's face it" is that alarm bell again.

You. Cannot. Show. Bildt. Wasn't. Told.

End.

 

[Andy_Ross]

Engineer Sillaste was the only crew member who had been interviewed by SuPo and the three PM's at that stage and he never mentioned the bow visor falling off as of the date Bildt made his announcement.

Let's face it, Bildt knew of the accident straight away as Swedish defence forces were tracking the ship. Probably giving it a submarine escort due to the stuff on board.

Are we going through this again?

Are you still maintaining that not one of the rescue teams or hospital staff will have talked with the survivors as the were being rescued or coming ashore?

Are you now also back to a Swedish submarine ramming the ferry and sinking it?

Again, what is the point of a submarine escort? what was it expected to do?

 

[junkshop]

I was paraphrasing, so seems all right to me. I am sure you could buy a welding kit from Argos and set about recreating the bow visor deformations seen but that doesn't cancel out the Clausthal-Zellerfeld observations.

With the highlighted you are confirming that your statement that 'To even get to temperatures above 700°C artificially you need to be in a laboratory.' was not, as you had previously maintained, a quotation from Braidwood's report. I will accept this as your answer.
However, as I have previously noted, I read the report that you linked to. There is nothing in there that could be paraphrased as 'To even get to temperatures above 700°C artificially you need to be in a laboratory.'. You do understand, I assume, what paraphrasing is?

You still haven't answered my first question. For reference, it is this:

Do you accept that your claim that "To even get to temperatures above 700°C artificially you need to be in a laboratory." was wrong?

I would appreciate it if you could answer it.

Please note that I didn't ask anything about welding, soldering (by the way, you do realise these are not the same thing, right?), deformation or Argos. None of that is relevant to my question, savvy?

 

[MarkCorrigan]

You do not know the meaning of 'gish gallop' but you seem to think it sounds good.

Torpedo isn't just a spectacular WWII movie scenario they do come in different magnitudes.

You don't know for sure at this stage what caused the 22m x 4m hole in the hull.

In your own words, what is a Gish Gallop Vixen?

 

[P.J. Denyer]

It would probably be unwise inside the house due to the mess it makes, though considering the state of our living room, nobody would notice. But it would certainly work and welding steel does fundamentally mean melting steel at the joint, whether you accept it o not.

A mate of mine welded up a hardtail bike frame in his kitchen. Considering he rode it around & won a couple of "Best Chop" prizes with it he'll probably be quite surprised to discover from Vixen that he couldn't actually have welded (ie melted together) the frame.

Joining Metals
As opposed to brazing and soldering, which do not melt the base metal, welding is a high heat process which melts the base material. Typically with the addition of a filler material.

Heat at a high temperature causes a weld pool of molten material which cools to form the join, which can be stronger than the parent metal. Pressure can also be used to produce a weld, either alongside the heat or by itself.

It can also use a shielding gas to protect the melted and filler metals from becoming contaminated or oxidised.

https://www.twi-global.com/technical-knowledge/faqs/what-is-welding#howitworksI

I was interested to check what temperature my rather crappy domestic stovetop gets to, but my IR thermometer tops out at 650°C and it exceeded that. The red glow would suggest somewhere in the high 700s-low 800s.


But this is a digression and I know there will never be an admission of error.

 

[Axxman300]

I feel sad each time there is a comparison made with the Estonia disaster to something the Soviets did in WWII, or something that happened to a warship of any kind. Russians sinking a ship full of escaping German soldiers in WWII is not proof of anything beyond how much rage they had toward the Third Reich for all they had endured combined with the desire to crush Hitler and end the war.

At no time during the Cold War did the Soviets engage in mass murder to stop stolen hardware that was out of their borders.

We have examples of Ro-Ro Ferries rolling over, and the Estonia's sister ship had been pulled in for repairs on it's bow clamps...the same ones which failed on Estonia. These are the only relevant comparisons, and they show a distinct trend. Then when you look at the MANY changes to Ro-Ro ferries mandated across Europe after the disaster and the cause of the sinking becomes clear.

Oh, and all three "holes" in the Estonia are on the starboard side, the same side which impacted the sea floor. I'm not a scientist but I'm not immune to the obvious.

 

[LondonJohn]

Er, the relatives of the loved ones / victims injured by such a sabotage...?

If Sweden was using a pubic passenger vehicle for dangerous armament shipment smuggling and the vehicle was sabotaged for this reason would it or would it not have some vicarious liability for the incident happening at all?

No. In no way whatsoever.

 

[Kid Eager]

I can only conclude that one or more of Vixen's garden gnomes have been stolen by a Swede and this thread is a revenge fantasy. This scenario is just as plausible as any other presented...