Discussion: Transwomen are not women (Part 7)

[p0lka]

For example:

See what I mean?

/me waves there are no droids here

 

[Emily's Cat]

If you are outright rejecting gender as a concept (which I agree with) because of the reasons you stated,

then why immediately go with another label that will just cause similar issues?

It's the categorising and labelling which is the actual problem.

Gender and sex are different. I reject gender; I do not reject sex. Sex is a real, objective, physical state of being, and has very significant impacts on our lives.

 

[Emily's Cat]

'Black birthing bodies' is a particularly gross one.

Yeah, there's a really strange shroud of racism involved in some of the gender activism. I've lost track of how many times I've run across an argument that boils down to "if black women are accepted as women then male women should be too". As if the status of black females as females were ever in question.

 

[Emily's Cat]

And then satire speaks truth...

https://twitter.com/TitaniaMcGrath/status/1445437849956978691

Why do bigots find gender identity so confusing?

It simply means the immutable yet fluid feeling that one is male or female or neither or both based on conceptions of masculinity and femininity that are innate but also social constructs that don’t exist.

This really isn’t hard.

 

[p0lka]

Gender and sex are different. I reject gender; I do not reject sex. Sex is a real, objective, physical state of being, and has very significant impacts on our lives.

I agree, gender is a variable, sex is a constant.

Why make labels though?, it makes the issue worse?

you did this 'Sometimes Male-Exclusionary Normal Female.'
for instance.
it's just labelling again, we have to get rid of the "we have to conform" *****,

 

[Meadmaker]

I agree, gender is a variable, sex is a constant.

Why make labels though?, it makes the issue worse?

you did this 'Sometimes Male-Exclusionary Normal Female.'
for instance.
it's just labelling again, we have to get rid of the "we have to conform" *****,

I think her intent was to create a fake label as a way of mocking labels, specifically the label "TERF".

 

[Emily's Cat]

I agree, gender is a variable, sex is a constant.

Why make labels though?, it makes the issue worse?

you did this 'Sometimes Male-Exclusionary Normal Female.'
for instance.
it's just labelling again, we have to get rid of the "we have to conform" *****,

It was a sad attempt at humor, nothing more.

I object to being called a TERF - I'm neither Trans-Exclusionary, nor a Radical Feminist. I would be willing to accept SMENF on the grounds that it's at least accurate.

 

[Ziggurat]

'Black birthing bodies' is a particularly gross one.

There's a weird tic among certain sections of what one might call the activist crowd which likes to refer to "bodies" instead of "people". It's creepy and weird and anytime I see someone doing it, I know they're about to say something stupid.

 

[8enotto]

If we blindly just disregard gender in whatever a person wants to be, great. Sex is binary, great.
Seems really easy in theory.

Now how do we disregard Paula Bunyan with a full beard going into the ladies room and worrying the hell out of everyone else in there?

I know how the ladies in my life would react, it wouldn't be all hugs and understanding of Paula's feelings.
If the transperson makes an effort to fit the criteria and is discreet about her business it would go almost without notice.
Almost because there are still women that will never want to share that space.

In practice it becomes a bit more difficult.

 

[d4m10n]

Yeah, it seems that when I post about gender, other people think I'm talking about sex. And the reverse of course.

Easiest way to solve that problem is to stop talking about gender and stick to talking about sex.

I don't think there is any way to affirm someone's gender identity while talking about sex.

(Except the obvious one, which well may be over the line.)

 

[Graham2001]

You do you, boo.

But men can have babies and women can have penises.

People born biological female can have babies. People born biological male can have penises.


Anything else requires surgical intervention.

 

[LondonJohn]

You are wrong.

This is another case of you assuming that what you think *ought* to be how it works, actually *is* how it works, and just running with it without bothering to check.

CDC Statement on Pregnancy Health Advisory refers to "pregnant people" and doesn't use the terms "woman" or "female anywhere.

Breastfeeding and Caring for Newborns if You Have COVID-19 keeps the term "breastfeeding", but throughout it refers to "pregnant people" and "birth parent", never to "women".

Health Affairs Centering The Needs Of Birthing People During The COVID-19 Pandemic

These terms are used in these contexts because it's much easier/quicker than writing (for example): "pregnant women and pregnant transmen". But in the context of one-to-one communications (eg when a woman or transman is actually in an obstetrics clinic), a ciswoman will always be addressed as a pregnant woman.

If I saw a public health statement on, say, prostate cancer which referred to "people with prostate cancer", I wouldn't feel in the least bit outraged/excluded/marginalised as a cisman. Because I realise that transwomen can get prostate cancer too. But obviously that's just me. Each to his/her own.......

 

[LondonJohn]

People born biological female can have babies. People born biological male can have penises.


Anything else requires surgical intervention.

That's absolutely true.

But what's also true is that people born biologically female can be men; and people born biologically male can be women.

So men (transmen) can have babies. And women (transwomen) can have penises.

 

[LondonJohn]

Oh, great question, LJ - how will prisons cope with people who might be subjected to violence and abuse by other prisoners? Real tough one...

Aside from the blindingly obvious fact that prisons are actually quite adept at keeping various types of prisoners apart, which is why they don't have dead pedophiles turning up every day.

So if it's a "real tough one" (and I assume you're being sarcastic there), what's your answer to the question "where* should transwomen prisoners be housed?"?

Because if your answer is "always in men's prisons", then you might wish to inform (eg) the British Government and the British** judiciary that a) you know better than them and b) because of that, you are sufficiently enlightened to know that they're wrong and you're right


* with caveats, and after risk assessment, and with careful monitoring.

** England & Wales judiciary, more precisely in this instance.

 

[LondonJohn]

This IS lexicography class all over again.

"A woman is a person who BELIEVES that their more comfortable in a female body rather than a male body."

I'm sure this will go over well.

Nope. A woman is a person who identifies as a woman.

 

[The Atheist]

So if it's a "real tough one" (and I assume you're being sarcastic there),...

That's one assumption where it's entirely correct.

...what's your answer to the question "where* should transwomen prisoners be housed?"?

In a secure unit for trans women only.

Because if your answer is "always in men's prisons"...

Hell, build new prisons if necessary, but if they're in a secure, separated section, I don't imagine it matters whether the rest of the jail is all-men or all-women.

 

[Aber]

If I saw a public health statement on, say, prostate cancer .

But you haven't.

Are you not concerned that there is a double standard being applied?

 

[LondonJohn]

Nope.

It's anti-Hubbard animus.

I believe - and men's weightlifting is a sport I've been close to for 50 years - that Hubbard exploited the rules and is not a genuine trans woman.

Supported by its jillionaire daddy, Hubbard had never done a day's work in its life, spending all its time training to break into the top echelon of men's weightlifting. And fail.

In a remarkable coincidence, Hubbard decided it was a woman shortly after men were allowed to compete against women. I'm just thankful the rule change didn't happen at an earlier age, or it would hold unbeatable records in all weightlifting disciplines. Well, unbeatable until the next bloke pulled on panties.

Ummmm... you may think you're justified in this belief, but you're not.

Because you've apparently given yourself the right to decide that Hubbard "is not a genuine transwoman". What do you think gives you that right? And presumably you also believe that the administrators of weightlifting in New Zealand have been either duped or (to use that mantra born of zealotry) "policy captured" in accepting that Hubbard is indeed a transwoman? Because, logically and in a very real sense, your ire should be aimed specifically and solely at them, not at Hubbard.


Do you think that any given person should have the right to determine, for example, that Zachary Quinto is not a "genuine" homosexual man? Or that Elliot Page is not a "genuine" transman?

Do you think that if a person decides that Elliot Page is not a "genuine" transman, this gives that person a free pass to refer to Elliot Page as "it"?

And do you think that if this person decides to refer to Elliot Page as "it", this is somehow indicative solely of the person's "anti-Elliot-Page" animus, and is in no way indicative of that person's wider anti-transgender belief system?

 

[LondonJohn]

But you haven't.

Oh really?

https://www.cancer.gov/news-events/...decipher-test-prostate-cancer-hormone-therapy

Are you not concerned that there is a double standard being applied?

No. I'm not.


(And obviously I'm aware that an exceptionally tiny proportion of females can develop prostate cancer, but I don't believe that the inclusive use of "people" in this context is solely aimed at females)

 

[Aber]

Oh really?

https://www.cancer.gov/news-events/...decipher-test-prostate-cancer-hormone-therapy

Telling that you need to use a US example in contrast to the UK examples for maternity services.