Discussion: Transwomen are not women (Part 7)

[Emily's Cat]

And that term is used strictly and solely with transmen who give birth, if (and only if) it's the term that they themselves prefer to be used for them. A ciswoman giving birth will never be referred to in this way by hospitals/midwives/etc.

You are wrong.

This is another case of you assuming that what you think *ought* to be how it works, actually *is* how it works, and just running with it without bothering to check.

CDC Statement on Pregnancy Health Advisory refers to "pregnant people" and doesn't use the terms "woman" or "female anywhere.

Breastfeeding and Caring for Newborns if You Have COVID-19 keeps the term "breastfeeding", but throughout it refers to "pregnant people" and "birth parent", never to "women".

Health Affairs Centering The Needs Of Birthing People During The COVID-19 Pandemic

 

[Emily's Cat]

Which prisons should all transwomen automatically be housed in, then?

If they're still in possession of a penis and testicles, then either with the males or in a separate wing all to themselves, perhaps with other at-risk inmates. If they lack both a penis and testicles, feel free to house them with the females.

 

[Meadmaker]

Isn't that the other thing right back at the start? The attempted cancellation and labelling as TERF of JK Rowling, because she said something about that very subject?

Indeed.

You're a TERF, mate.

So I hear, but I still don't think I'm a radical feminist.

 

[JoeMorgue]

Then I suggest you keep your eyes to yourself.

Why does this not apply to all penises? Or indeed everything.

 

[theprestige]

I'm not so sure of that. Transsexuality has historically implied trying to blend in and pass as the opposite sex, was indicated by severe gender dysphoria, and almost always implied a surgical approach, although that wasn't guaranteed. And I can understand hesitation around surgical alterations, as they're not particularly convincing or effective, and have a lot of complications.

That's not what's being sought by trans activists though. The current conceptualization of transgender includes drag queens, cross-dressers, and gender nonconforming people of every sort. Many of the "trans umbrella" approaches consider effeminate gay males and butch lesbians to be trans - even if those individuals consider themselves to not be so. There's also the premise that being transgender doesn't require gender dysphoria, no expectation of HRT, no expectation of any surgical undertaking, and no expectation to actually pass effectively. In some cases, there's not even an expectation that someone attempt to pass.

Thus you end up with the masculine-presenting butch lesbian transwomen being considered transgender, and the expectation that they will receive treatment in every aspect of society as if they were indistinguishable from a female... even though to all objective observers they would be heterosexual males.

My thesis is that once you start including drag queens and so forth, "transgenderism" is essentially meaningless. It goes hand in hand with the general deprecation of gender roles and stereotypes in society. Hell, nobody can even define what a woman is, or what it means to treat someone like a woman. The only areas of social interaction and public policy where transgenderism has any practical applications are the areas currently segregated by sex. Practically speaking, in terms of things that actually have definitions, it's transsexualism.

 

[Emily's Cat]

1) No, your examples are not comparable. The Atheist's deliberate use of "it" was explicitly aimed at denying the gender - and any gender, for that matter - of a transwomen with whom he was upset or angry. The terms you list are, by contrast, intended to afford respect to certain groups of females (even though I realise you don't understand this - see below).

I understand that it is intended to afford respect to females who reject their sex class, and it does so by reducing the rest of us females to nothing more than a bodily function and robbing us of our humanity.

2) You still appear confused wrt the terms you've listed. For example, the terms "people who menstruate" or "birthing body" are intended to be used solely in the context of transmen.

You're wrong. This might be how you imagine it should work, but your imagination doesn't dictate reality.

3) This "adult human female" mantra is really achieving some sort of cult status, isn't it?

No, it's a simple, clear, direct definition. As opposed to the lack of anything meaningful that you provide when asked what a woman is. Or even to describe what attributes and characteristics are shared by transwomen and females, which are NOT shared with males.

The only mantra out there is "Transwomen are Women, Transmen are Men, Nonbinary Identities are Valid".

Big Brother Protects.

 

[p0lka]

There is no transgenderism without gender indoctrination. A better term for what we're discussing, and what trans activists are actually working towards, is transsexuality.

Re the hilighted yeah i agree.
Gender indoctrination creates labels and categories that have caused issues.

Transgender people seem to be trying to conform to a label or category that is defined by gender indoctrination.

other letters of the lbgt community are fighting against conforming to those labels or categories for the same gender indoctrination.

gender indoctrination is the problem.

 

[Emily's Cat]

So I hear, but I still don't think I'm a radical feminist.

Nor am I. Rolfe *might* actually be a radical feminist, but I think they are rather simply "gender critical". Contrary to the propaganda, "gender critical" doesn't mean that they are criticizing any one person's gender identity, rather that they are critical of the entire concept of gender in its entirety.

I'm not merely critical, I outright reject gender as a concept. It is reductive, regressive, and confining, and adds no value to any of our lives.

I'll go with SMENF: Sometimes Male-Exclusionary Normal Female.

 

[p0lka]

Nor am I. Rolfe *might* actually be a radical feminist, but I think they are rather simply "gender critical". Contrary to the propaganda, "gender critical" doesn't mean that they are criticizing any one person's gender identity, rather that they are critical of the entire concept of gender in its entirety.

I'm not merely critical, I outright reject gender as a concept. It is reductive, regressive, and confining, and adds no value to any of our lives.

I'll go with SMENF: Sometimes Male-Exclusionary Normal Female.

If you are outright rejecting gender as a concept (which I agree with) because of the reasons you stated,

then why immediately go with another label that will just cause similar issues?

It's the categorising and labelling which is the actual problem.

 

[theprestige]

If you are outright rejecting gender as a concept (which I agree with) because of the reasons you stated,

then why immediately go with another label that will just cause similar issues?

It's the categorising and labelling which is the actual problem.

I'm pretty sure that recognizing the male and female categories isn't the actual problem. In fact, I'm pretty sure that *not* recognizing the male and female categories is the actual problem. Either way, getting hung up on gender categories is a red herring.

What I find weird, and I assume you're not doing it on purpose, but every single post you make on the subject of clearing up the confusion only seems to perpetuate the confusion.

 

[JoeMorgue]

How is it that "Identity" is sacrosanct but "labels" are evil when they are the exact same thing?

 

[theprestige]

What I find weird, and I assume you're not doing it on purpose, but every single post you make on the subject of clearing up the confusion only seems to perpetuate the confusion.

For example:

How is it that "Identity" is sacrosanct but "labels" are evil when they are the exact same thing?

See what I mean?

 

[Elaedith]

You are wrong.

This is another case of you assuming that what you think *ought* to be how it works, actually *is* how it works, and just running with it without bothering to check.

CDC Statement on Pregnancy Health Advisory refers to "pregnant people" and doesn't use the terms "woman" or "female anywhere.

Breastfeeding and Caring for Newborns if You Have COVID-19 keeps the term "breastfeeding", but throughout it refers to "pregnant people" and "birth parent", never to "women".

Health Affairs Centering The Needs Of Birthing People During The COVID-19 Pandemic

'Black birthing bodies' is a particularly gross one.

 

[p0lka]

I'm pretty sure that recognizing the male and female categories isn't the actual problem. In fact, I'm pretty sure that *not* recognizing the male and female categories is the actual problem. Either way, getting hung up on gender categories is a red herring.

What I find weird, and I assume you're not doing it on purpose, but every single post you make on the subject of clearing up the confusion only seems to perpetuate the confusion.

Yeah, it seems that when I post about gender, other people think I'm talking about sex. And the reverse of course.

 

[JoeMorgue]

Yeah, it seems that when I post about gender, other people think I'm talking about sex.

If only someone would clarify the difference in an objective, not distinction without difference way that doesn't change every 5 seconds and doesn't revert back to "gender soul" over and over.

 

[theprestige]

Yeah, it seems that when I post about gender, other people think I'm talking about sex. And the reverse of course.

Easiest way to solve that problem is to stop talking about gender and stick to talking about sex. Since that's where the actual conflict is anyway.

 

[p0lka]

If only someone would clarify the difference in an objective, not distinction without difference way that doesn't change every 5 seconds and doesn't revert back to "gender soul" over and over.

Are you asking how sex is defined?
In our species its male of the species and female of the species, it's clearly defined.

Gender seems to be socially dictated in part.

Does that answer your request for clarification?

 

[JoeMorgue]

Are you asking how sex is defined?
In our species its male of the species and female of the species, it's clearly defined.

Gender seems to be socially dictated in part.

Does that answer your request for clarification?

Yes and at the same time no.

Sex as in biological sexual dimorphism is clearly defined (outside of rare edge cases not relevant to this discussion.)

Gender is... well I guess I'll have to ask for clarification on that "in part" modifier before I agree or disagree.

 

[Alt+F4]

Easiest way to solve that problem is to stop talking about gender

Someone in this thread said that without stereotyping there would be no gender and I could not agree more.

I'm a 57 year-old cis woman, probably the oldest of that category that posts in this thread. I have no idea what it means to be a woman except that I have never met a woman that would subject another woman to seeing a penis against her will with the answer, "just look away".

 

[p0lka]

Easiest way to solve that problem is to stop talking about gender and stick to talking about sex. Since that's where the actual conflict is anyway.

I started posting again in this thread a while back because of people stating that they are female when they're not.
there is no discussion regarding sex, it's reality.
Gender is whatever you want.