Discussion: Transwomen are not women (Part 7)

[LondonJohn]

Regardless of what the new terminology turns out to be, I can see some justification in keeping spermshooters out of the prison facilites designated for housing ovulators.

Which prisons should all transwomen automatically be housed in, then?

(I guess I don't really expect you to see the very real problems around housing transwomen in men's prisons, so I probably already know the answer you're going to give to my question. Hope springs eternal though...)

 

[Boudicca90]

Regardless of what the new terminology turns out to be, I can see some justification in keeping spermshooters out of the prison facilites designated for housing ovulators.

Even that term doesn't cover everybody you think it does. I can't be accurately described as a "spermshooter" anymore. I'm as dry as the desert.

 

[Ziggurat]

Even that term doesn't cover everybody you think it does. I can't be accurately described as a "spermshooter" anymore. I'm as dry as the desert.

I'm not sure he intended to cover you. As I keep saying, trans people are not all the same, and this is a relevant distinction.

 

[Meadmaker]

3) This "adult human female" mantra is really achieving some sort of cult status, isn't it?

It's part of the rigid doctrine of orthodox Websterians.

 

[Distracted1]

Which prisons should all transwomen automatically be housed in, then?

(I guess I don't really expect you to see the very real problems around housing transwomen in men's prisons, so I probably already know the answer you're going to give to my question. Hope springs eternal though...)

Interesting question. Why not segregate the men's prison to accommodate a separate population of men who identify as women?

Curiously, if that were the case would you support the pleas of surgically transitioned trans women to keep non surgically transitioned trans-women out of their segregated space?

 

[d4m10n]

Which prisons should all transwomen automatically be housed in, then?

Why assume the process should be automatic rather than case-by-case?

 

[sphenisc]

Why assume the process should be automatic rather than case-by-case?

I think the more urgent question is why it should apply to all transwomen rather than those sentenced to prison.

 

[Meadmaker]

And that term is used strictly and solely with transmen who give birth,

You are wrong.

A lot of ignorance around.

Indeed.

 

[sir drinks-a-lot]

2) You still appear confused wrt the terms you've listed. For example, the terms "people who menstruate" or "birthing body" are intended to be used solely in the context of transmen.

And that term is used strictly and solely with transmen who give birth, if (and only if) it's the term that they themselves prefer to be used for them. A ciswoman giving birth will never be referred to in this way by hospitals/midwives/etc.

Are you sure? Who is the ruling body on this?

 

[d4m10n]

It's part of the rigid doctrine of orthodox Websterians.

Here are just a handful of relevant links:

1. https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/woman#Noun
2. http://www.oxforddictionaries.com/us/definition/american_english/woman
3. https://www.ahdictionary.com/word/search.html?q=woman
4. http://www.collinsdictionary.com/dictionary/english/woman
5. http://www.vocabulary.com/definition/woman
6. http://dictionary.cambridge.org/dictionary/british/woman_1
7. http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=woman
8. https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/woman
9. http://www.webster-dictionary.org/definition/woman
10. http://webstersdictionary1828.com/Dictionary/woman

I think it's worth asking which of these reportive definitions from general dictionaries is the one we're talking about here.

If the answer is "none of the above," then we're going to need a more specialized glossary.

 

[Alt+F4]

...women can have penises.

Ok, but I don't want to see a "woman penis" in a locker room or if I am hospitalized, in the bed next to me.

 

[Alt+F4]

I can see some justification in keeping spermshooters out of the prison facilites designated for housing ovulators.

Prisons contain many people beyond the age of ovulating and sperm production.

 

[d4m10n]

Prisons contain many people beyond the age of ovulating and sperm production.

Yes, and these are not the people I was talking about.

I think the more urgent question is why it should apply to all transwomen rather than those sentenced to prison.

Fair point. [emoji14]

 

[Elaedith]

Meanwhile, females don't have penises, and males can't have babies. Your emojis sophistry doesn't carry you as far as your arguments require.

But pigs can fly if you redefine 'fly' as 'rolling around on the ground grunting', or 'pig' as 'feathered animal with wings'. You can make anything come true by changing definitions. It's amazing.

 

[Emily's Cat]

There is no transgenderism without gender indoctrination. A better term for what we're discussing, and what trans activists are actually working towards, is transsexuality.

I'm not so sure of that. Transsexuality has historically implied trying to blend in and pass as the opposite sex, was indicated by severe gender dysphoria, and almost always implied a surgical approach, although that wasn't guaranteed. And I can understand hesitation around surgical alterations, as they're not particularly convincing or effective, and have a lot of complications.

That's not what's being sought by trans activists though. The current conceptualization of transgender includes drag queens, cross-dressers, and gender nonconforming people of every sort. Many of the "trans umbrella" approaches consider effeminate gay males and butch lesbians to be trans - even if those individuals consider themselves to not be so. There's also the premise that being transgender doesn't require gender dysphoria, no expectation of HRT, no expectation of any surgical undertaking, and no expectation to actually pass effectively. In some cases, there's not even an expectation that someone attempt to pass.

Thus you end up with the masculine-presenting butch lesbian transwomen being considered transgender, and the expectation that they will receive treatment in every aspect of society as if they were indistinguishable from a female... even though to all objective observers they would be heterosexual males.

 

[Emily's Cat]

You do you, boo.

But men can have babies and women can have penises.

Sure, sure. And mares can ejaculate, and stallions can birth foals.

 

[Elaedith]

And that term is used strictly and solely with transmen who give birth, if (and only if) it's the term that they themselves prefer to be used for them. A ciswoman giving birth will never be referred to in this way by hospitals/midwives/etc.

2) You still appear confused wrt the terms you've listed. For example, the terms "people who menstruate" or "birthing body" are intended to be used solely in the context of transmen.

These statements are demonstrably untrue.

A lot of ignorance around. Shame.

It is indeed. Perhaps you should start fact-checking before pontificating.

 

[Boudicca90]

Ok, but I don't want to see a "woman penis" in a locker room or if I am hospitalized, in the bed next to me.

Then I suggest you keep your eyes to yourself.

 

[The Atheist]

A hypothetical analogy.
Suppose some unethical doctors somewhere took a chimpanzee and altered it through chemical and surgical means to resemble a human in all external and internal respects to the extent of their ability.
Would it then be human?

I have a better one - this guy.

Despite his looks, he's still a human male.

Now we need a new pair of words to use when we talk about the group of people who can have babies, and its opposite, the group of people who can make the first group have babies.

Isn't that the other thing right back at the start? The attempted cancellation and labelling as TERF of JK Rowling, because she said something about that very subject?

You're a TERF, mate.

Which prisons should all transwomen automatically be housed in, then?

Oh, great question, LJ - how will prisons cope with people who might be subjected to violence and abuse by other prisoners? Real tough one...

Aside from the blindingly obvious fact that prisons are actually quite adept at keeping various types of prisoners apart, which is why they don't have dead pedophiles turning up every day.

 

[Alt+F4]

Then I suggest you keep your eyes to yourself.

I suggest a person with a penis keep it to themselves.