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Right-wing populism

Actually it wasn't the Comic Sans font that bugged me, I found the sky-blue-on-white writing causing eyestrain.

But I do see our politicians and media doing their best to distract us from substantive issues.

I wonder, is there any truth though to what seems to be... that Americans like Democrat's issues but don't tend to like the Democrats themselves so much...?
 
Jocko said:
Universal and government-controlled health care, based on the idea that Big Brother knows best.
What a strange idea. Do you have any examples of where you believe this to have happened, or do you believe this would be the inevitable consequence of a US implementation?
 
Zero said:
So, you feel that other taxes should be paid, but it is just income taxes that are evil and demonic?;)

Such a position you describe is extremely reasonable.

Other forms of taxation just don't involve the invasion of privacy and intrusive effect into lifestyle choice that an income tax provides.

It isn't that big of a deal for someone that just works 9-5, but when you throw in a even a small business on the side the whole thing becomes a nightmare where the government has the ability to make you prove you have done nothing wrong.

I think Tony is being a bit of a bombastic and ill-informed reactionary when he claims such taxation as being unconstitutional and/or being slavery or theft, but there is a pretty reasonable idealistic argument against the income tax as currently operated as an invasion of privacy.
 
Suddenly said:
I think Tony is being a bit of a bombastic and ill-informed reactionary when he claims such taxation as being unconstitutional and/or being slavery or theft, but there is a pretty reasonable idealistic argument against the income tax as currently operated as an invasion of privacy.
Please to explain! I suspect many arguments arise here as a result of lack of sensitivity to regional differences of the object being debated, and I admit that all I know about the US income tax system comes from a particular episode of The Simpsons, in which Homer becomes a stoolie for the FBI. :)
 
All I know is, taxation has never been that big of a deal to me.
 
gnome said:
Actually it wasn't the Comic Sans font that bugged me, I found the sky-blue-on-white writing causing eyestrain.

But I do see our politicians and media doing their best to distract us from substantive issues.

I wonder, is there any truth though to what seems to be... that Americans like Democrat's issues but don't tend to like the Democrats themselves so much...?
Well, as I posted earlier, the right-wing has learned to frame the issues in a certain way, because looking at the far-right agenda head on, no one would support it. You can tell how successful they have been when you talk to people who think Americans pay excessive amounts of taxes, for instance.
 
BillyTK said:

Please to explain! I suspect many arguments arise here as a result of lack of sensitivity to regional differences of the object being debated, and I admit that all I know about the US income tax system comes from a particular episode of The Simpsons, in which Homer becomes a stoolie for the FBI. :)

The main problem with saying the income tax is unconstitutional is the problem that it is specifically allowed for by a constitutional amendment. Even shanek agrees on this point, to let you know just how far downstream those that call the tax "unconstitutional" are...

The main problem with calling it slavery is that it is such a broad use of a term that calling such a tax slavery makes the word "slavery" meaningless, and since "slavery" has a pretty direct cultural meaning in the U.S. (that whole plantation, Beloved, Gone With The Wind and Civil War thing...), it such labelling can be seen as either gross insensitivity or an attempt to use the suffering of others to make a cheap political point.

As far as the income tax goes, every year every U.S. resident and citizen must file a form listing all income for the year. Also, the goernment allows deductions for cretain things, such as business expenses, mortgage interest, and charitable gifts. These must be listed.

Thus, I must file a form containing quite a bit of personal data every year. Plus, the Internal Revenue Service (IRS) has the power to "audit" me, which means they can crawl up my butt with a microscope and force me to provide proof for every deduction and any money that they think I needed to list as income. "Lifestyle audits" are even better. The IRS looks at my life and decides that my expressed income is too small for the way I live, and makes me prove I'm not hiding anything.

Small businesses get shafted when the IRS decides that a certain expense is too high for a business size or type and decideds to disallow it as a deduction, absent direct proof that the expense was paid. This creates a bookkeeping and storage expense as all recipts and such must be recorded.

None of this would really matter all that much if the income tax was maybe one or two percent of income, but it is quite a bit higher. Most people have the tax "withheld" from their paycheck and never really see the massive amount going out, as usually the amount withheld is in excess of the account owed, creating a "refund" when the yearly return is filed. This allows the government to somehow create positive re-enforcement for filing the tax return simply by paying back what amounts to an interest free loan.

However, those of us that have now or in the past made a living other than working for an outside company fully understand how much money is going out for these taxes. Not just the check to the feds, but the all the money and time wasted on compliance with the tax code, and the perverse incentives towards wasteful and inefficient economic behaviour it causes.

It is a policy with many hidden costs, costs that since they are not visible to the vast majority of Americans are ignored when the issue is debated.

All in all I'm not bothered by the amount of tax so much as the invasion of privacy and cost of compliance of the tax in its present form.
 
Suddenly - thanks for the explanation, it's very informative and enlightening.
All in all I'm not bothered by the amount of tax so much as the invasion of privacy and cost of compliance of the tax in its present form.
Perhaps you'd prefer the UK system, in which tax is deducted at source, as a percentage of the amount you earn according to set tax thresholds, and paid on your behalf by your employer? That is, unless you're self-employed or have set up an off-shore holding company in a low-tax/no-tax haven to handle these things ;)
 
This is not a reply to any previous post on this thread.

Several times I have tried to have dialogs with Libertarians in order to understand their political philosophy. I knew no Libertarians growing up so I was a blank slate on the subject as it were. Here is what I have found to be the case universally:

1. Libertarians hold their views very strongly and are uncompromising about them. This limits any hope they have of being a successful political party.

2. Libertarianism is based upon a gross misconception of survival of the fittest

3. Libertarianism is based on a gross misconception that people can be completely autonomous and that human existence is not interdependent.

4. All Libertarians seem to be under the impression that they will prosper under a Libertarian government. No Libertarians I have ever spoken with has been willing to consider that they would end up as one of the "weak", "stupid", "irresponsible" people that will end us sick, destitute, or dead in an otherwise utopian world of Libertarianism.

Like any set of ideas that attracts people there are a few grains of Libertarianism that I think would be good and beneficial to society but as a whole I find it to be a selfish and dangerous political philosophy based on self-righteous corruptions of Darwinism.

Libertarians are justifiably angry at politicians and businesspersons who abuse and cheat their way to financial success. But Libertarianism seems to be designed to simply put the Libertarians in their place as the "top" of the socio-economic food chain, to make this a better world for them and not all of us.


Puskara
 
This is not a reply to any previous post on this thread.

Several times I have tried to have dialogs with Libertarians in order to understand their political philosophy. I knew no Libertarians growing up so I was a blank slate on the subject as it were. Here is what I have found to be the case universally:

1. Libertarians hold their views very strongly and are uncompromising about them. This limits any hope they have of being a successful political party.

2. Libertarianism is based upon a gross misconception of survival of the fittest

3. Libertarianism is based on a gross misconception that people can be completely autonomous and that human existence is not interdependent.

4. All Libertarians seem to be under the impression that they will prosper under a Libertarian government. No Libertarians I have ever spoken with has been willing to consider that they would end up as one of the "weak", "stupid", "irresponsible" people that will end us sick, destitute, or dead in an otherwise utopian world of Libertarianism.

Like any set of ideas that attracts people there are a few grains of Libertarianism that I think would be good and beneficial to society but as a whole I find it to be a selfish and dangerous political philosophy based on self-righteous corruptions of Darwinism.

Libertarians are justifiably angry at politicians and businesspersons who abuse and cheat their way to financial success. But Libertarianism seems to be designed to simply put the Libertarians in their place as the "top" of the socio-economic food chain, to make this a better world for them and not all of us.


Puskara
Sure, but then I think you could make similar lists of Democrats and Republicans. #1 & #4 are spot on for any partisan and Ed knows all parties are populated with them. I also think you make some rather broad statements and your views oversimplified. #4 is also a blanket statement. Libertarians are not monolithic. I personally know liberal and conservative Libertarians. #4 is easily falsified. #2 & #3 are gross misconceptions of Libertarian ideology (IMO). FWIW, I'm libertarian as opposed to Libertarian.

Aside from that your post is provocative and therefore will perhaps spark a discussion.

Good luck
 
I'd prefer that Equal Opportunity continued as our credo; instead welcome to the welfare state which wants to provide Equal Outcomes.
...
I prefer people trying to buy tax breaks or other legislative abra-ca-dabra designed to enrich their own and corporate interests to those who (generously - with other peoples money) only want Equal Outcomes; schools, health-care, etcetec.
I like a lot of what you're saying, but I can't let this strawman go. I personally know of no democrat, elected official or just regular voter, who wants Equal Outcome. (He11, even watching Robin Hood growing up, I never got the idea that he was trying to make things equal :) )

(BTW...schools are not an outcome, but an opportunity, at least in the minds of anyone on the "left" that I know.)
 
I like a lot of what you're saying, but I can't let this strawman go. ..... (He11, even watching Robin Hood growing up, I never got the idea that he was trying to make things equal :) )
I'm not too fond of Robin Hood either. ;)

I personally know of no democrat, elected official or just regular voter, who wants Equal Outcome. ...

(BTW...schools are not an outcome, but an opportunity, at least in the minds of anyone on the "left" that I know.)
Ever hear of Head Start? Dumbed down grades & admissions requirements ... yada-yada-yada?

We seem to disagree on the intent of transfer payments. Our pc'lib buddies (especially those in the limos .. with tax-exempt wealth) want nothing more than to leaven the masses. At least that's how it looks from my viewpoint.
 
I'm not too fond of Robin Hood either. ;)


Ever hear of Head Start? Dumbed down grades & admissions requirements ... yada-yada-yada?

We seem to disagree on the intent of transfer payments. Our pc'lib buddies (especially those in the limos .. with tax-exempt wealth) want nothing more than to leaven the masses. At least that's how it looks from my viewpoint.
I hear you. I still don't see it as Equal Outcome. But Closer Together Outcome, absolutely.
 
I don't understand. Are you calling libertarianism, right wing populism?
 
I don't understand. Are you calling libertarianism, right wing populism?

I think it's said in the original post that the poll is off-topic. I still can't believe I created that poll, though. That's something I would never write! Never, ever, ever. I didn't even respond to the poll. I do remember my brief phase with that font, however.

Libertarianism (and libertarianism, for that matter) lacks a significant populist element. Most libertarians I've encountered are consistent with this previous characterization: "No Libertarians I have ever spoken with has been willing to consider that they would end up as one of the "weak", "stupid", "irresponsible" people that will end us sick, destitute, or dead in an otherwise utopian world of Libertarianism." Other people are holding them down -- people, mind you, who are too dumb to recognize that if the government just got out of the way that they themselves would be better off.
 
the vast majority of Americans agree with the basic platform of the Democratic Party

I don't even no how to respond to that, it's completely false.
------
A great number of voters are single issue voters. It's a sure fire way to elect a tyrant.

The gun control issue is very real. Go some place that has a gun ban.
The first act of every dictator is to disarm the public.

I'm completely astonished that 48% feel the libertarians are wrong.
You must not understand libertarianism or have fallen for the brainwashing of the republicrats.

I've been a libertarian since before I knew what the word meant.

By the way, America does NOT have a two party system. There is absolutely NO written rule, standard, suggestion, law, or guideline in the government's structure to indicate such.
We have become a two party system because those two, who are actually one with two branches, have set up the rules for campaigns and elections so that nobody else can get in.

When I ran for office I had to collect 5000 petition signatures to get on the ballot as a Libertarian. The republicrats did not have to collect any. It varies by State but the practice is commonplace.
It's called divide and conquer, as long as half of those that vote choose A and the other half choose B, either A or B is guaranteed to win.
Try being the outsider, it is truly amazing how the big 2 work together to keep everyone else out. Yet most people believe they are actually enemies. Nothing could be further from the truth.

Libertarians are not far-right. The big two and the press invented the left vs. right idea to increase the separation. The range is more detailed than that.
Visit www.theadvocates.org, and try the quiz. Libertarians are anti-authoritorians.

Upholding the Constitution is vital to the survival of the country. It is this Constitution that promoted the United States to become one of the most powerfull nations with among the highest standards of living in the world in a very short time. The USA is very young compared to much of the rest of the world. A free society, with free trade, free worship (including not to), with the right to remove our government's leaders if we the people choose is what made the country the envy of the world. Some would have that destroyed.
 
Let's go for 100% taxation and total redistribution of wealth, the Michael Moore plan.
Thanks for bumping the thread, I forgot to vote. Reading your post reminds me why I don't support Libertarians, you make stuff up, even more then those you love to mock.

Now the 48% who think Libertarians are wrong is a little bit higher.
 
Zero
the vast majority of Americans agree with the basic platform of the Democratic Party
And the vast majority believe in god and the power of prayer.

Zero
the vast majority of Americans agree with the basic platform of the Democratic Party
And yet they put Republicans in charge of the Senate, House and the White House.

Odd ducks those Americans.
 
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All I know is, taxation has never been that big of a deal to me.
How about ATM fees?

It's seems a lot of people get upset when the price of gas goes up or they have to pay $1.50 to use an ATM machine but the fact that the government can't account for billions of dollars and inarguably waste billions more which directly affects people's disposable income for some odd reason isn't a concern. Why is that?
 

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