The supernatural

[Pixel42]

Hi. I have a few questions for you. Whose work can this reference to science and especially the new science that has been discovered in the last century be?

I'm saying that just because it's possible to interpret this particular verse as a reference to current scientific knowledge, that does not mean that was the author's intended meaning. It's far more likely, given the context of the rest of the book, that the intended meaning was something else entirely, and the author had no knowledge whatsoever of future scientific discoveries.

 

[Scorpion]

Here is verse 51.47 according to M.M. Pichthall

We have built the heaven with might, and We it is who made the vast extent thereof.

Here is Darwoods translation of 51.47

We built the heaven with our might, giving it a vast expanse and stretched the earth beneath it.

Here is the Yusuf Ali translation 51.47

With power and skill did we construct the firmament: for it is we who expand the vastness of space. 51.48 And we have spread out the earth: How excellently we do spread out!

Only the Yusuf Ali translation could be construed as meaning space is expanding. And that is not clear. And the next verse says the earth is flat.

Heydarian, do you read Arabic, and if so are you translating the Quran yourself, or are you using an English translation for your quotes?
If so Which translation are you using?

As far as I can see surah 51.47 is saying space is a vast expanse, Not that space is expanding.

We need an Arabic speaking scholar here to clarify the issue. Or access to more translations. I only have access to six translations at the moment.

Here is the translation of the knoble Quran, 51.47

47. With power did We construct the heaven. Verily, We are Able to extend the vastness of space thereof.

Here is another translation by. Sherali

47And WE have built the heavens with Our own hands, and, verily, WE have vast powers.

another by Shakir

47 And the heaven, We raised it high with power, and most surely We are the makers of things ample.

 

[heydarian saeed]

Edited by Agatha: 

Edited to match quoted post

A testament to what about it? It is a religion whose holy book people attempt to retrofit to science in order to claim it must be the divine word of god. It isn't alone in this, and just because this is a rather poor attempt to paper over the cracks doesn't mean that this thread is unique either.

However, Islam is also a religion whose holy book very explicitly states that apostates should be killed. The Bible also shares this trait, but the quran is unique in how often it repeats this commandment. Not just the proclamations about how we will burn in hell (although that crops up constantly too) but to kill us. The Quran directly instructs Muslims to kill all non believers wherever they find them. More than once. That's a pretty disgusting book.



I have no problem with Muslims. I in fact find it impressive that there are so many good people who profess to believe in the violent, supremacist book of horrors that is the Quran, just like I find it impressive there are so many good people who profess to believe in the violent, supremacist book of horrors that is the Bible.

I do have a problem with any supremacist ideology. Any ideology that states that those outside of it should be killed and deserve to be killed is a horrifying one. I don't care if it is a religious ideology like Islam and Christianity or a political one like Fascism.

Hello. In the Qur'an and the religion of Islam, extravagance and extravagance are disliked and rejected. This is not the cause of the war in Islam. Rather, we have a defensive jihad in Islam. If the enemy of anyone (even the neighboring neighbor of the country, who is also a Muslim) intends to invade our land and attack, it is obligatory to defend and jihad against him. Isn't this the law and procedure in every country? If your land is invaded, will you not defend or attack?
In the Qur'an, the principle is based on peace and biological peace with all countries and nations. I will give you just one example: Surah Al-Mumtahanah. See verses 7 to 9, which say: "Allah will establish friendship between you and those with whom you have an enemy, and Allah is Able to do, and Allah is Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful." Religion has not fought you and expelled you from your religion, and does not forbid you from doing good to them and doing justice to them, for God loves the judges. Religion has fought you, driven you out of your homes, and supported you in driving you out, and whoever befriends them, they are the wrongdoers.
In the Qur'an, it says the cause of good and evil. And it tells the end of the work of the two groups. pay attention. He says that the reason for disbelief is covering the truth and not believing in the truth and denying it. The end of what they have provided is torment. God does not punish anyone for no reason. Torment and fire come from our own actions. On the contrary, it is good. The good ones accept the truth and act on it, so they are rewarded and found comfort in heaven.
Nowhere does the Qur'an insult or disrespect anyone. Unfortunately, this is our misconception of the Qur'an. If you have an example to the contrary, tell me the address so that I can check and answer.
Apart from this correct Qur'anic practice, if you see any violation, it is not from the Qur'an. It is the political work of governments. I do not want to talk about government policy. Because I believe that politics is always accompanied by lies. Not quite right. Of course, politicians justify that it should be expedient and act accordingly. These conversations are very common. And I do not belong to him.
Dear friend of the association, please tell me only about the article if you have a question or article so that I can review and answer. Because these conversations are long and our main goal is a long time behind. And it takes. Thank you very much.

 

[Scorpion]

Hello. In the Qur'an and the religion of Islam, extravagance and extravagance are disliked and rejected. This is not the cause of the war in Islam. Rather, we have a defensive jihad in Islam. If the enemy of anyone (even the neighboring neighbor of the country, who is also a Muslim) intends to invade our land and attack, it is obligatory to defend and jihad against him. Isn't this the law and procedure in every country? If your land is invaded, will you not defend or attack?
In the Qur'an, the principle is based on peace and biological peace with all countries and nations. I will give you just one example: Surah Al-Mumtahanah. See verses 7 to 9, which say: "Allah will establish friendship between you and those with whom you have an enemy, and Allah is Able to do, and Allah is Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful." Religion has not fought you and expelled you from your religion, and does not forbid you from doing good to them and doing justice to them, for God loves the judges. Religion has fought you, driven you out of your homes, and supported you in driving you out, and whoever befriends them, they are the wrongdoers.
In the Qur'an, it says the cause of good and evil. And it tells the end of the work of the two groups. pay attention. He says that the reason for disbelief is covering the truth and not believing in the truth and denying it. The end of what they have provided is torment. God does not punish anyone for no reason. Torment and fire come from our own actions. On the contrary, it is good. The good ones accept the truth and act on it, so they are rewarded and found comfort in heaven.
Nowhere does the Qur'an insult or disrespect anyone. Unfortunately, this is our misconception of the Qur'an. If you have an example to the contrary, tell me the address so that I can check and answer.
Apart from this correct Qur'anic practice, if you see any violation, it is not from the Qur'an. It is the political work of governments. I do not want to talk about government policy. Because I believe that politics is always accompanied by lies. Not quite right. Of course, politicians justify that it should be expedient and act accordingly. These conversations are very common. And I do not belong to him.
Dear friend of the association, please tell me only about the article if you have a question or article so that I can review and answer. Because these conversations are long and our main goal is a long time behind. And it takes. Thank you very much.

The Quran contains an entire surah number 8 entitled 'spoils of war'
Muhammad opens the surah by saying all spoils of war belong to him. But later in the surah at 8.41 he says only one fifth of the spoils belong to him.
You can see his mind working as he realized nobody would fight for him if he took all the spoils of war so he decided to settle for one fifth.

Also the Quran says fighting is prescribed for Muslims at 2.216 and it tells them the reward for those that fight against Muhammad should be they are killed or crucified, or have their hands and feet cut off on alternate sides 5.33

There was nothing holy about Muhammad, he was a lying bandit who claimed he got a message from God to scare people into fighting his battles. He was a savage, not a messenger of God.

 

[heydarian saeed]

Heydarian, do you read Arabic, and if so are you translating the Quran yourself, or are you using an English translation for your quotes?
If so Which translation are you using?

As far as I can see surah 51.47 is saying space is a vast expanse, Not that space is expanding.

We need an Arabic speaking scholar here to clarify the issue. Or access to more translations. I only have access to six translations at the moment.

Here is the translation of the knoble Quran, 51.47

47. With power did We construct the heaven. Verily, We are Able to extend the vastness of space thereof.

Here is another translation by. Sherali

47And WE have built the heavens with Our own hands, and, verily, WE have vast powers.

another by Shakir

47 And the heaven, We raised it high with power, and most surely We are the makers of things ample.

Hi. Thank you dear friend for quoting several different meanings of this verse. All these meanings acknowledge the last point of the verse and confirm that we expand the heavens. In the word Lamosoun, the letter L refers to the sky and gives breadth to the sky. The word and before that is turning to the same sky. And these two letters in Arabic are to explain and confirm the word breadth. The word expanse has a clear meaning. So we created the sky with our power and we will always expand it. I recommend that you enlist the help of someone who is fluent in Arabic to explain the meaning of this verse to you in full.
And the words farshana and mahdon do not mean smooth. pay attention; That is, we have expanded and how well we are expanding the earth. This does not mean that the earth is flat and does not contradict its sphericity. In this verse, he does not mention the shape of the earth at all. He only says that we have spread the earth because it is ready for my life and yours - for my and your residence and urban development - for my and your agriculture and ... and how well we are spreading the earth for you human beings ... God is right and He loves me and you and all human beings very much. But we do not understand.
Thanks

 

[Scorpion]

.. God is right and He loves me and you and all human beings very much. But we do not understand.
Thanks

You must be joking. The Quran clearly says Gods curse is on unbelievers in Muhammad.

Surah 2.161 Lo! those who disbelieve. and die while they are disbelievers: on them is the curse of Allah and of the angels and of men combined.

Then there are the lovely verses that say Allah will burn disbelievers for all eternity. He will drag them through boiling liquid in chains and into hellfire, where they will have their skins burnt off and renewed and burnt off again for all eternity.

See Surah's 4.56 and 22.19 to 22.22 and 40.72


I am with Robert Ingersoll in the belief it would be better that God was destroyed than that even one person should burn for eternity.

Quote:
"I cannot believe that there is any being in this universe who has created a human soul for eternal pain. I would rather that every god would destroy himself; I would rather that we all should go to eternal chaos, to black and starless night, than that just one soul should suffer eternal agony".
Robert G. Ingersoll (1833-99):

 

[heydarian saeed]

I'm saying that just because it's possible to interpret this particular verse as a reference to current scientific knowledge, that does not mean that was the author's intended meaning. It's far more likely, given the context of the rest of the book, that the intended meaning was something else entirely, and the author had no knowledge whatsoever of future scientific discoveries.

Good friend dear community; The same argument can be made by the author of the book. Isn't that so? that's mean ; You have your goal and it is true, but I will take a different view of what you are saying. I also advised other friends that; In the meaning of the verses of the Qur'an, which I say, it is better for you to seek help from a person who is completely fluent in Arabic and the Qur'an to fully explain to you what this verse of the Qur'an means. I inform you that; I use the text of the Qur'an by Uthman Taha and the meanings of Master Ghomshei - Makarem Shirazi - Fooladvand and Tabatabai. Thank you

 

[Pixel42]

Good friend dear community; The same argument can be made by the author of the book. Isn't that so?

The author of the book is long dead so no, he can't make that argument, or any other. We can't ask him what his meaning is. That's why we have to make informed guesses, taking into account the rest of the book and what we know about it.

You have your goal and it is true, but I will take a different view of what you are saying. I also advised other friends that; In the meaning of the verses of the Qur'an, which I say, it is better for you to seek help from a person who is completely fluent in Arabic and the Qur'an to fully explain to you what this verse of the Qur'an means.

That depends on whether the fluent person in question is genuinely attempting to determine the author's intended meaning, or is biased in favour of a particular interpretation and is cherry picking verses and interpreting them accordingly. For example, if someone is attempting to show that the author possessed scientific knowledge not available when the book was written they will look for, and interpret, verses with that in mind, and ignore contradictory verses and interpretations. The latter is clearly what you and your sources are doing, which is why your "research" is worthless.

 

[heydarian saeed]

You must be joking. The Quran clearly says Gods curse is on unbelievers in Muhammad.

Surah 2.161 Lo! those who disbelieve. and die while they are disbelievers: on them is the curse of Allah and of the angels and of men combined.

Then there are the lovely verses that say Allah will burn disbelievers for all eternity. He will drag them through boiling liquid in chains and into hellfire, where they will have their skins burnt off and renewed and burnt off again for all eternity.

See Surah's 4.56 and 22.19 to 22.22 and 40.72


I am with Robert Ingersoll in the belief it would be better that God was destroyed than that even one person should burn for eternity.

Quote:
"I cannot believe that there is any being in this universe who has created a human soul for eternal pain. I would rather that every god would destroy himself; I would rather that we all should go to eternal chaos, to black and starless night, than that just one soul should suffer eternal agony".
Robert G. Ingersoll (1833-99):

No, I'm not kidding. Continuing the stubbornness of the disbelievers on a particular subject and their insistence on enmity with God and the Qur'an, it is natural that God curses them as well. What should I expect? But I'm arguing with you on a subject. If you insist on the wrong idea, I will never reject you, and I will address you as a friend. Thank you dear friend
You only see the negative dimension of the issue, dear friend. Why don't we do something to go to heaven? A paradise that is good and full of blessings and comfort. Are we stubborn? My dear God wants to say: a bad end is equal to a bad one, that's all. It tells these stories and examples for you and me to set foot on the right path. And do good and see good. Well is this good or not? Why do you insist on being bad?Be good, see well. Be bad, look bad.

 

[Scorpion]

No, I'm not kidding. Continuing the stubbornness of the disbelievers on a particular subject and their insistence on enmity with God and the Qur'an, it is natural that God curses them as well. What should I expect? But I'm arguing with you on a subject. If you insist on the wrong idea, I will never reject you, and I will address you as a friend. Thank you dear friend
You only see the negative dimension of the issue, dear friend. Why don't we do something to go to heaven? A paradise that is good and full of blessings and comfort. Are we stubborn? My dear God wants to say: a bad end is equal to a bad one, that's all. It tells these stories and examples for you and me to set foot on the right path. And do good and see good. Well is this good or not? Why do you insist on being bad?Be good, see well. Be bad, look bad.

To me the Quran is an utterly evil book of lies about God. I happen to believe in God and a spirit world, but as far as I am concerned the Allah described in the Quran is a sadistic monster.

I have quoted the horrible verses about eternal hellfire, and they do not seem to bother you. But I find them appalling, and can hardly understand how anyone would worship such a monster. There is actually a verse saying Allah only created jinn and humankind so that they would worship him. 51.56 That is a pathetic reason to create people.

 

[Pixel42]

No, I'm not kidding. Continuing the stubbornness of the disbelievers on a particular subject and their insistence on enmity with God and the Qur'an, it is natural that God curses them as well. What should I expect? But I'm arguing with you on a subject. If you insist on the wrong idea, I will never reject you, and I will address you as a friend. Thank you dear friend
You only see the negative dimension of the issue, dear friend. Why don't we do something to go to heaven? A paradise that is good and full of blessings and comfort. Are we stubborn? My dear God wants to say: a bad end is equal to a bad one, that's all. It tells these stories and examples for you and me to set foot on the right path. And do good and see good. Well is this good or not? Why do you insist on being bad?Be good, see well. Be bad, look bad.

You are assuming that what the Qur'an says is true. But there is no good reason to believe that, and plenty of good reasons not to. If it's not true, and you still obey its teachings (to kill unbelievers, say) then its you that is bad and us disbelievers, who do not follow your false religion and hence do not murder people who rightly disagree with us, who are good.

 

[heydarian saeed]

The author of the book is long dead so no, he can't make that argument, or any other. We can't ask him what his meaning is. That's why we have to make informed guesses, taking into account the rest of the book and what we know about it.


That depends on whether the fluent person in question is genuinely attempting to determine the author's intended meaning, or is biased in favour of a particular interpretation and is cherry picking verses and interpreting them accordingly. For example, if someone is attempting to show that the author possessed scientific knowledge not available when the book was written they will look for, and interpret, verses with that in mind, and ignore contradictory verses and interpretations. The latter is clearly what you and your sources are doing, which is why your "research" is worthless.

good job. You say a good impression. And that's exactly what you say. "I first see the clear words of the Qur'an and its apparent and clear meaning. And whoever sees the clear word of the Qur'an and sees its clear and simple meaning is certainly not mistaken. You tell me the meaning: what is the sky and what makes it powerful? And then what do we develop and expand the sky? Dear friend, are these seven words of verse 47 of Surah Dhariyat clear? Is the meaning of each word also clear?
Good dear friend; The same clear and precise meaning says that we created the sky with power and we always expand. I did not add anything or a word about myself. This verse. This verse. This verse .... how complicated do you and your friends make it ?? !!!! For what purpose? !!!

 

[Jack by the hedge]

If a book fails to persuade people that it's story is true then it is not logical to assume that any fault lies with the people who are not persuaded.

 

[Pixel42]

This verse .... how complicated do you and your friends make it ?? !!!! For what purpose? !!!

You're the one who is making it complicated by trying to twist its meaning to line up with a recent scientific discovery. It's clearest and most obvious meaning has already been pointed out to you.

 

[Scorpion]

good job. You say a good impression. And that's exactly what you say. "I first see the clear words of the Qur'an and its apparent and clear meaning. And whoever sees the clear word of the Qur'an and sees its clear and simple meaning is certainly not mistaken. You tell me the meaning: what is the sky and what makes it powerful? And then what do we develop and expand the sky? Dear friend, are these seven words of verse 47 of Surah Dhariyat clear? Is the meaning of each word also clear?
Good dear friend; The same clear and precise meaning says that we created the sky with power and we always expand. I did not add anything or a word about myself. This verse. This verse. This verse .... how complicated do you and your friends make it ?? !!!! For what purpose? !!!

As far as I can see surah 51.47 is saying space is a vast expanse, Not that space is expanding.

 

[Jack by the hedge]

Is the meaning of each word also clear?

Sadly, no.

In English the word "sky" can mean the earth's atmosphere, the weather above you, the entire visible universe or some imagined heaven. I don't know how many meanings it might have in the Quran. It is a simple word, but if you wish to argue that it is being used with one precise meaning then that is a claim which you are bringing yourself and is not in the text.

 

[heydarian saeed]

..Continued method:
3. How the world ended;
There are different theories about the end of the world, but what they all have in common is that the world will end one day, so it is not possible for the universe to expand forever because according to the law of conservation of energy, matter and energy are always constant. The expansion of the universe will stop and begin to return and contract as it did.
The current view of scientists is that the shape of the universe is almost like a flat sheet with little curvature.
In response to the question of when the end of the world will occur, the Russian physicist Alexander Friedman in 1920 showed that the answer to this question depends on the mass of the universe.
"If the universe has enough matter, gravity (gravity) will eventually stop the universe from expanding, and objects will move toward each other, and eventually all of them," says Ray Willard in The Universe and the Way of the Galaxy. They gather at a single point. This event is called the "Great Depression." . "
It is strange that the Qur'an in the following verse refers to the end of the world and the shape of the universe, which is like a curved sheet.
In Surah Anbiya, verse 104 says: Translation; The Day when we will wrap the heavens like a scroll of writings and bring it back as We began the creation, this is a promise upon us, and we will surely fulfill it.
(For a better understanding; if we look closely, we find that the scroll sheets that were often used in the past is a flat sheet that is slightly curved due to folding.)

 

[heydarian saeed]

Sadly, no.

In English the word "sky" can mean the earth's atmosphere, the weather above you, the entire visible universe or some imagined heaven. I don't know how many meanings it might have in the Quran. It is a simple word, but if you wish to argue that it is being used with one precise meaning then that is a claim which you are bringing yourself and is not in the text.

Yes, dear friend. It has different meanings, but one of them is my chosen meaning that I said. And this meaning refers to the science of the day. Dear friend, do you know why the Quran is eternal? And it always has meaning and meaning. The reason is that the words chosen in it by God Almighty have been in a way that has meaning at any time according to the science of time. And this in itself is a miracle of the Qur'an. thank you

 

[Scorpion]

The Pickthall translation of that verse is:

Quran 21.104 The day when we shall roll up the heavens as a recorder rolls up a written scroll. As we began the first creation. We shall repeat it.

The Hindus had a view of a cyclic universe long before the Quran, in any case I believe the prevailing scientific theory is that the universe has not got enough matter in it to implode, so it will just continue expanding until all the stars go out, and there will be nothing but darkness.

 

[heydarian saeed]

... 4. Space black holes;
Space black holes are huge phenomena that scientists have been researching for more than half a century before finally acknowledging their existence. Scientists say that when stars become larger (they run out of nuclear fuel completely, and as a result the gravitational force in it overcomes the star and causes it to fall in and out), a black hole forms. Nothing can escape the gravitational field of such an area, not even a beam of light. And that's why black holes are not visible.Scientists consider black holes to have three basic properties: 1- They are invisible 2- They move 3- They attract other celestial bodies. It is strange that the Qur'an mentions the same attributes in the following verses.
In Surah Takwir, verses 14 and 15, he says: Translation; Translation: I swear by the hidden stars that are moving and attracting.
Al-Khans means that which is hidden and invisible, Al-Jawar means that which moves with great speed, and Al-Khans means that which attracts (and sweeps the sky). And this is what scientists admit about black holes. Kans is the plural of kans and kans in Arabic is something that sweeps. In fact, black holes, due to their extraordinary gravitational pull, attract many celestial bodies and seem to sweep the surrounding space.The Qur'an speaks of black holes when no one on earth had any idea of ​​them.
Elsewhere she says:Oaths to the Stars (75)
And this is a very great oath if you only knew! (76)
Regarding the times of astronomy which are mentioned in Surah Al-Waqi'ah:Sometimes it means a place to fall, and astronomy means a star. The probability given about the meaning of this word is the same as the space black holes that appear after the death of large stars. These stars have a high gravitational force after death, and the surrounding stars due to this attraction into this black The holes fall.
The Qur'an refers to this space event with the word "astronomical times".