Today's Mass Shooting

[Vixen]

Apart from he went on a shooting rampage that started with his mother and then random members of the public including a small child.

Of course he was a nutter!

We will never know as he doesn't seem to have ever had the mental health support as urgently requested by his mother during lockdown.

He probably was mentally ill, but for all we know, he might have just been a cruel psychopath looking for any reason to carry out a sadistic act.

 

[Matthew Best]

I'm sure it was just gang related, and therefore of no consequence, despite absolutely no evidence of that. You know how his kind are, despite no reporting of his race. That's how this thread has been rolling, right?

Er, there are photos of him widely available.

 

[Andy_Ross]

The Independent Office for Police Conduct (IOPC) said it had received preliminary information that Davison's firearm and licence were returned to him in early July this year.

The certificate and shotgun had been removed from him by police in December 2020 following an allegation of assault in September 2020, the watchdog said.

The IOPC has said it will investigate Devon and Cornwall Police's decision-making in relation to Davison's possession of a shotgun and shotgun certificate.

Regional IOPC Director David Ford said: "The investigation will also consider whether the force had any information concerning Mr Davison's mental health and if so, if this information was appropriately considered."

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-devon-58206101

 

[Thermal]

Er, there are photos of him widely available.

Hadn't seen any posted? Not did I search through UK media, except for being on BBC news feed.

 

[Matthew Best]

Hadn't seen any posted? Not did I search through UK media, except for being on BBC news feed.

[imgw=600]https://i.imgur.com/7lXxqnj.png[/imgw]

 

[catsmate]

While handguns appear almost impossible to acquire in the UK, shotguns are easier to obtain legally. From Business Insider, may be slightly dated:

Guns you can buy legally in the UK

I'm surprised his Facebook page is still up.

This is why I don't think he would have bought it legally

From your link...

"Shotguns and rifles may be licensed by applying for a certificate through the local police force, according to the government's guide on gun-licensing law.

The local authority will carry out a series of checks — including interviews, criminal-records checks, and a visit to the person's property — before granting permission."​

You would be surprised how lax it can be for shotguns.

As has been said the UK (which I'm limiting for this purpose to EWS) differentiates between a 'Shotgun Certificate' and an 'Firearm Certificate'. The latter covers rifles and some shotguns while the former covers only shotguns (and then only weapons holding a maximum of three cartridges).
A Shotgun Certificate if far, far, easier to obtain.

 

[catsmate]

Any restrictions on ammo types? Shotguns are notoriously versatile. Someone shooting small game and clays would have no legitimate need for buckshot or slugs. Getting shot with birdshot is no picnic, but is much more survivable compared to other loadings.

Full bore or saboted slugs cannot be held on a SC, requiring a FC. Some exotic types are illegal in general without Home Office approval.
In general shot cartridges of whatever type can be purchased and held without restriction.

 

[Bogative]

Back to the colonies for the weekday count totals.

Coahoma, Mississippi

2 killed, 2 wounded.

14-year-old Zymarious Smith and his aunt Regina Smith-Hopkins were gunned down during a drive-by shooting while visiting neighbors who had recently attended a funeral.


Portland, Oregon

2 killed, 4 wounded.

"Rap artists" 12 o'clock and Murdock were killed in what appears to be a drive-by shooting.

Young Dirty Bastard, the son of the late Wu-Tang rap legend Ol’ Dirty Bastard, in a post to Instagram on Tuesday, wrote of his cousins, “Rip 12 O’Clock. Rip Murdock. They Were My Fathers Tightest blood bonds. My Two Older cousins Was just assassinated. Love Yalll. Blood Forever. Brooklyn Zu.”

Philadelphia, Pennsylvania

1 killed, 4 wounded.

Police said a group of people was playing a dice game outside Banana’s Bar & Lounge along the 5500 block of Rising Sun Avenue in the Olney neighborhood shortly before 10 p.m. when a gunman opened fire.

My guess is all British Police would carry a firearm if they had to deal with this **** everyday.



ETA: almost forgot.

3 mass shootings.

5 killed.

10 wounded.

0 RMVE-WSs on the trigger.

 

[Nessie]

I know you've been a FEO in the past but I've never been able to casually amass my shotguns without completing the relevant section and having the gun referenced on my shotgun licence.

ETA - I see you clarified things in a later post, although I would correct your assertion that a "reason" column exists on the Sec 1 FAC. This is not the case here in Scotland although a reason had to be given as part of the application back in the day and that was checked for veracity. My mind is addled but I don't ever recall a "reason" column.

There was definitely a reason column on one of the forms I would complete, you as an applicant/holder would not see the other forums. Each application and renewal was a book of forms, which was religiously checked to ensure every single part was completed in full.

 

[Nessie]

I referred to the Plymouth shooter as a nutter, because we now know that is what he was, and I prefer to avoid naming shooters.

Considering that in 2019-20 there were 586,351 certificates issued in England & Wales, of which 1512 were revoked, if 1 was returned, even by mistake, which it may not have been, that means the licensing system works remarkably well.

If he was accused of assault, then he gets a pending case put onto PNC. Since he is already on PNC for holding a certificate, that triggers a call to go out, which for an alleged assault would mean his licence and gun is seized. But, if the assault pending case is dropped, he has to get his licence and gun back. If, meantime, nothing has come to light about his "incel" and odd online activity, then the police did not make a mistake giving his licence and gun back.

 

[CaptainHowdy]

We will never know as he doesn't seem to have ever had the mental health support as urgently requested by his mother during lockdown.

He probably was mentally ill, but for all we know, he might have just been a cruel psychopath looking for any reason to carry out a sadistic act.

I'm not sure if those things are mutually exclusive

 

[zooterkin]

I'm surprised his Facebook page is still up.

It's gone now, along with his youtube and reddit accounts. But I'm not surprised it takes a while, given how hard it is to contact a real person at Facebook about any issues. Also, I don't think there's any obligation on the service providers to remove the page, though I can understand why they might choose to.

 

[Nessie]

It is worth noting that the UK unarmed police had armed police officers on scene in 6 minutes of the initial call.

 

[jimbob]

The Independent Office for Police Conduct (IOPC) said it had received preliminary information that Davison's firearm and licence were returned to him in early July this year.

The certificate and shotgun had been removed from him by police in December 2020 following an allegation of assault in September 2020, the watchdog said.

The IOPC has said it will investigate Devon and Cornwall Police's decision-making in relation to Davison's possession of a shotgun and shotgun certificate.

Regional IOPC Director David Ford said: "The investigation will also consider whether the force had any information concerning Mr Davison's mental health and if so, if this information was appropriately considered."

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-devon-58206101

That's going to look bad. And I expect the rules will be tightened in the wake of this. Because that's what happens in countries where such events are rare.

 

[Nessie]

There are not far off 100,000 firearms certificates in the UK, so checking social media accounts, especially when anon accounts would have to be volunteered, is nigh on impossible.

If D&C police were given credible information about concerns for the shooter's mental health, and those concerns suggested he was now a danger to others or himself and that was not acted upon, then there is a definite failure in the system. If a person decided the information given was not sufficient to act, then that is a potential failure of judgement.

 

[Carrot Flower King]

I referred to the Plymouth shooter as a nutter, because we now know that is what he was, and I prefer to avoid naming shooters.

We don't know that at all: this is just lazy assumption, if not prejudice. Assuming you mean "nutter" as a person with a diagnosable mental illness, rather than a broader, more colloquial usage.

He claimed he was "autistic", but , AFAIK, there is no sign of him having a diagnosis - it will be interesting to see if any further information comes out about that.

 

[Nessie]

We don't know that at all: this is just lazy assumption, if not prejudice. Assuming you mean "nutter" as a person with a diagnosable mental illness, rather than a broader, more colloquial usage.

He claimed he was "autistic", but , AFAIK, there is no sign of him having a diagnosis - it will be interesting to see if any further information comes out about that.

Someone who rants as he did on social media about what he did and then goes out and shoots people and kills himself, is colloquially a "nutter". If you check back my posts about guns, I have regularly used the term to mean someone mentally unsuitable to have a gun. I have often said that the failings of the US system of gun control is that it is too easy for criminals, nutters and children to get hold of guns.

I assessed someone with autism as suitable to have a firearms certificate. I am well aware that mental health issues does not therefore mean unsuitable to have a gun. Depression was high amongst farmers, but that was not a reason in itself to not issue.

The issue here is did D&C know about the mental health issues and if so, why was he judged to be suitable to get his gun back?

 

[Vixen]

[/B]
I'm not sure if those things are mutually exclusive

No, they are not. But if all he had was a deeply nasty personality, something he was born with, albeit modified via early childhood experiences and socialisation, then it is wrong to stigmatise those who are genuinely 'mentally ill' as somehow nasty characters, IMV.

Of course, this guy could well have been mentally ill and in great need of help. OTOH it might just have been an anti-social personality disorder that made him so abnormally aggressive.

Compare and contrast him with that guy who murdered two sisters in a park in Wembley. Police found he had been on the dark web dabbling in satanism and making pacts with some demon. Now that is the sort of thing that is classic schizophrenia, although I dare say he'll be treated by the courts as bad rather than mad. This guy responsible for the Keyham killings more closely resembles the far-right 'survivialists' one see in America, who see themselves as urban guerillas (Timothy McVeigh comes to mind). To me, the idea that being a virgin at 22 is a rational reason to do what he did strikes me as sociopathic rather than 'ill'. Of course, it is not possible to diagnose someone from a distance and his mother did beg for mental health support for him. Another possibility is some kind of genetic disorder - something wrong with his chromosomes that affects his wiring. I guess it is possible to be both mentally ill and have a personality disorder. Who knows? Just my 2p worth.

 

[Carrot Flower King]

No, they are not. But if all he had was a deeply nasty personality, something he was born with, albeit modified via early childhood experiences and socialisation, then it is wrong to stigmatise those who are genuinely 'mentally ill' as somehow nasty characters, IMV.

Of course, this guy could well have been mentally ill and in great need of help. OTOH it might just have been an anti-social personality disorder that made him so abnormally aggressive.

Compare and contrast him with that guy who murdered two sisters in a park in Wembley. Police found he had been on the dark web dabbling in satanism and making pacts with some demon. Now that is the sort of thing that is classic schizophrenia, although I dare say he'll be treated by the courts as bad rather than mad. This guy responsible for the Keyham killings more closely resembles the far-right 'survivialists' one see in America, who see themselves as urban guerillas (Timothy McVeigh comes to mind). To me, the idea that being a virgin at 22 is a rational reason to do what he did strikes me as sociopathic rather than 'ill'. Of course, it is not possible to diagnose someone from a distance and his mother did beg for mental health support for him. Another possibility is some kind of genetic disorder - something wrong with his chromosomes that affects his wiring. I guess it is possible to be both mentally ill and have a personality disorder. Who knows? Just my 2p worth.

Re the highlighted: no, it doesn't in and of itself indicate schizophrenia. If it did you'd have to diagnose every satanist and spiritualist as schizophrenic, which they aren't. Not to mention all those religionistas who pray to their god and expect results.

And the way certainly English and Welsh consent laws run it is not possible for his mother to request treatment for him, as, absent factors leading to the application of the Mental Health Act or him having been assessed as incapable of giving consent under the provisions of the Mental Capacity Act, he will be deemed a consenting adult.

 

[Carrot Flower King]

Someone who rants as he did on social media about what he did and then goes out and shoots people and kills himself, is colloquially a "nutter". If you check back my posts about guns, I have regularly used the term to mean someone mentally unsuitable to have a gun. I have often said that the failings of the US system of gun control is that it is too easy for criminals, nutters and children to get hold of guns.

I assessed someone with autism as suitable to have a firearms certificate. I am well aware that mental health issues does not therefore mean unsuitable to have a gun. Depression was high amongst farmers, but that was not a reason in itself to not issue.

The issue here is did D&C know about the mental health issues and if so, why was he judged to be suitable to get his gun back?

OK: I do get quite sensitive to any perception of an equation of violence or other unusual behaviours with mental illness (not surprising given my background), especially when one sees the post below this one of yours I've quoted with satanism equals schizophrenia in it...