Jogging in Georgia while black.

[Thermal]

You made a claim couched as a statement of fact, and failed to back it up with facts.... yet again!

You made this statement.... "cameras on a wide open accessible site mean one thing: a trap" Whatever BS and other crap you waffled on about, you claimed that this is the ONLY reason to install security cameras.

Is this what you are down to? Micro scrutinizing a figure of speech? Cheap in the extreme.

Its "peace" of mind. Not only did you try to use the wrong word, you didn't even spell the wrong word correctly

...and ridiculing minor typos. By the way, had you kicked it in gear for a second, you'd see I only mistyped an "I" instead of an "a" when one-thumb tying on a phone. It happens. But you mindlessly assumed I mistyped a whole different word and misspelled that too? Whew. I overestimate you by a stretch.

You don't know much about insurance do you? Ill get to that later in the post

In fact I do, including Builders Risk on a US Homeowners policy, as well as American Commercial Contractors Liability. You screwed that up too, but we'll get there later in the post.

Yeah, ONE of the reasons, not the only reason as you claimed

Again, pettiness, not substance.

Yeah, just because a security camera doesn't deter everyone, does not mean it didn't deter some people, and it doesn't mean that wasn't a reason for installing them. Try, for once in your life to see beyond your own, narrow, blinkered, preconceived theories

Already addressed. Man, you are dull. I'm proposing another explanation, backed by observation and reasoning. Arguable, of course. But your petty personalizing is boring.

Oh yeah... and over here in the real world, owners of construction site actually DO install cameras literally for that very reason.

The real world, huh? I'm an actual American building contractor. What is your experience and insight on surveillance cameras on American jobsites? And before you squawk "anecdotal", post your own superior evidence.

I can, and have, successfully claimed against insurance when a snatch & grab thief stole a $2500 camera kit out of a window display when the front door of the shop was open (as it always is during the shop open hours) while my staff members were attending to another customer in the print lab (i.e. no-one was in the front half of the shop). Not only did the insurance company pay out, I handed the surveillance footage to the police, and they caught the thief a few days later.

Lovely. Moving the goalposts, tho. I asked if it was wide open and unattended 24/7, as the site in question was. You super cheesily altered it to normal business hours with workers in attendance.

So you have seen and reviewed ALL of the surveillance video?

If so, links please!

Just what was deemed relevant and released, as we all have. In fact, in the quote you hilited, I even said based on the months of security video released. You do see that right? Do you understand what it means?

You really need to work on your comprehension. Or be more honest. I always think these debates are supposed to be good natured. Thanks for continuing to open my eyes.

 

[DevilsAdvocate]

I am questioning why English was so concerned about trespassers, apparently only of one specific skin color, when he can't be bothered to discourage trespassing in the usual ways. It's fair game, and I'd like to see anyone with any involvement scrutinized.

It was his property. A Facebook page was made to "citizen police" alleged theft there. He reports to the police apparently only black people. That's enough to narrow eyes at least a bit.

As I said, in the 911 call Nov 18 he said there were different people on camera the previous night and that he had called the police to report them. That most likely was the white couple.

"Keep an eye on the boat and kids". Plywood over the door would take care of kids, and probably anyone else. But he didn't do that. The place was wide open, but with multiple cameras inside and out. That's what makes me a little suspicious.

Eta: you might want to double check your sources (from memory?). Surveillance footage on the property has been shown from December 17, according to timestamped video provided in post #3210.

There are videos of Arbery 10/25/19, 11/18/19, 12/17/19, 2/11/20, and 2/23/20. There are two other undated videos (on of a couple a night, one of two kids during the day). English said at the time of the murder he had deleted all of them except for the 2/11 and 2/23 videos.

I don't know why he didn't put up plywood. He was having health issues at the time, which may have had something to do with it.

English has been rather evasive and somewhat misleading about his actions. In call recorded 12/1/19 to Gylnn County police he said he had previously had fishing equipment stolen from a boat stored in a garage at the property. He says his cameras were in storage at the time. Then he put up the cameras and about a week later he say people on the property.

He called because he saw a car parked down by a bridge near Satilla Shores (on the grass by a bridge just down from the entrance to Satilla Drive). He thought that might be someone living under the bridge and connected to the stolen equipment and the trespassers. He said he thought the trespassers might the the thieves because the guy was carrying a tool bag. (That would be the white guy with the woman. Arbery was never seen carrying a bag.)

We have no indication that English reported the theft to the police. He later said he didn't report it because he didn't know when or where it happened because the boat was transported from Brunswick to Douglas. We don't know when that happened. Maybe he didn't know when or where it happened. But in the Dec 1 call he believes it happened at the construction site.

English called police about videos on 10/25, 11/18 and presumably on 11/17 and called about the car under the bridge on 12/1. We have no record of a call for the 12/17 incident, but it was three days later on 12/20 that the police sent him a text telling him that Greg was a retired police officer living down the street and that he could call him if he spotted people on the property.

On 2/11 English called Perez. That's when Perez went, armed, to check on the property. At some point he connected with Travis. Travis found Arbery in a yard and confronted him and Arbery ran away. Travis got Greg and they went looking for Arbery but couldn't find him.

On 2/23 English says he didn't see the video until 20 minutes later and he called a neighbor (probably Perez) and was tole the guy had been killed.

English didn't seem too concerned about the stolen equipment considering he never reported it stolen, other than mentioning it in the 12/1 call. I don't think English set up a trap, but he was reporting information to identify the people on his property and information about people he suspected may have been involved with the theft. But there does not appear to be any direct connection with the McMichaels or Roddy.

 

[smartcooky]

Is this what you are down to? Micro scrutinizing a figure of speech? Cheap in the extreme.



...and ridiculing minor typos. By the way, had you kicked it in gear for a second, you'd see I only mistyped an "I" instead of an "a" when one-thumb tying on a phone. It happens. But you mindlessly assumed I mistyped a whole different word and misspelled that too? Whew. I overestimate you by a stretch.



In fact I do, including Builders Risk on a US Homeowners policy, as well as American Commercial Contractors Liability. You screwed that up too, but we'll get there later in the post.



Again, pettiness, not substance.




Already addressed. Man, you are dull. I'm proposing another explanation, backed by observation and reasoning. Arguable, of course. But your petty personalizing is boring.



The real world, huh? I'm an actual American building contractor. What is your experience and insight on surveillance cameras on American jobsites? And before you squawk "anecdotal", post your own superior evidence.



Lovely. Moving the goalposts, tho. I asked if it was wide open and unattended 24/7, as the site in question was. You super cheesily altered it to normal business hours with workers in attendance.



Just what was deemed relevant and released, as we all have. In fact, in the quote you hilited, I even said based on the months of security video released. You do see that right? Do you understand what it means?

You really need to work on your comprehension. Or be more honest. I always think these debates are supposed to be good natured. Thanks for continuing to open my eyes.

Never mind... you're not worth any more of my time and effort!

 

[Belz...]

You could save a lot of posting effort if you changed your sig to "Thermal once made a slightly hyperbolic, though factually accurate claim, that made no difference whatsoever in context". I can recommend a tattoo artist if you like.

You now what would really help with that? If you stopped constantly discussing the victim's ability to run a mile. If you had, as you dishonestly claimed, corrected yourself promptly and dropped that line of argument I would be much more willing to be charitable.

As it stands your insistence on this issue is not reflecting well on you.

Maybe you're the one who should get that tattoo.

 

[TurkeysGhost]

A grand jury has charged three Georgia men with federal hate crimes and attempted kidnapping in the death of Ahmaud Arbery, a 25-year-old Black man who was shot while jogging last year.

https://www.npr.org/2021/04/28/991722733/3-men-indicted-on-federal-hate-crime-charges-in-ahmaud-arbery-killing

Pro-tip: don't use a racial slur against someone you just killed in a supposed "self-defense" shooting.

Racists eating **** at a massive scale, you love to see it.

 

[arthwollipot]

This confused me for a moment because I didn't see any charges for murder. They've already been charged at the state level with murder, aggravated assault and false imprisonment. This is saying that in addition to that, they are also being charged with the federal crimes of interference with rights, attempted kidnapping, and using guns to inflict violence.

Regardless, this is good news.

 

[TurkeysGhost]

This confused me for a moment because I didn't see any charges for murder. They've already been charged at the state level with murder, aggravated assault and false imprisonment. This is saying that in addition to that, they are also being charged with the federal crimes of interference with rights, attempted kidnapping, and using guns to inflict violence.

Regardless, this is good news.

Murder and other violent crimes are almost always covered by state law, not federal. Our killers broke Georgia law by committing this murder, but the only federal crime is the hate crime violation.

 

[arthwollipot]

Murder and other violent crimes are almost always covered by state law, not federal. Our killers broke Georgia law by committing this murder, but the only federal crime is the hate crime violation.

Yep. I worked that out. I've only been skimming this thread really so I think I missed the announcement that they'd been charged at the state level, which is why I was momentarily confused.

 

[smartcooky]

Which I guess means that even if they skate on the State murder charges, the Feds are gonna get-em

I love it!

 

[Belz...]

https://www.npr.org/2021/04/28/991722733/3-men-indicted-on-federal-hate-crime-charges-in-ahmaud-arbery-killing

Pro-tip: don't use a racial slur against someone you just killed in a supposed "self-defense" shooting.

Racists eating **** at a massive scale, you love to see it.

Good riddance. I hope they rot.

 

[JoeMorgue]

Gov. Kemp set to repeal Georgia's 1863 citizen's arrest law

ATLANTA -- Gov. Brian Kemp plans to sign a repeal of Georgia's Civil War-era citizen’s arrest law on Monday, a year after the fatal shooting of Ahmaud Arbery, a Black man pursued by white men who said they suspected him of a crime.

ABCNews: https://abcnews.go.com/Politics/wireStory/gov-kemp-set-repeal-georgias-1863-citizens-arrest-77601118

No word on any "Oh come on, if he didn't want to get shot he should have just run faster" clauses in the law.

 

[Thermal]

Gov. Kemp set to repeal Georgia's 1863 citizen's arrest law

This murder had nothing to do with citizens arrest, though. At all. Even theoretically a little bit. This had to do with racist rednecks playing cops and robbers with live rounds. It has a hell of a lot to do with carry laws. It has even more to do with conspiracy to cover up a murder reaching right on up to the DA's office.

 

[TurkeysGhost]

This murder had nothing do do with citizens arrest, though. At all. Even theoretically a little bit. This had to do with racist rednecks playing cops and robbers with live rounds. It has a hell of a lot to do with carry laws. It has even more to do with conspiracy to cover up a murder reaching right on up to the DA's office.

Sure, but the bad faith usage by the DA brought up a lot of interesting dialogue around the issue. Even though it turned out not to be relevant, the murder and subsequent cover-up had many people questioning whether it's prudent to provide legal protection to people engaged in amateur police work.

The McMichaels seemed to believe they were conducting a lawful citizen's arrest, and their incompetence in doing so lead to them escalating to lethal force. Perhaps its better not to encourage such haphazard apprehensions.

 

[Thermal]

Sure, but the bad faith usage by the DA brought up a lot of interesting dialogue around the issue. Even though it turned out not to be relevant, the murder and subsequent cover-up had many people questioning whether it's prudent to provide legal protection to people engaged in amateur police work.

The McMichaels seemed to believe they were conducting a lawful citizen's arrest, and their incompetence in doing so lead to them escalating to lethal force. Perhaps its better not to encourage such haphazard apprehensions.

Absolutely, it's very much Danger Zone territory to have CA laws. But I think the ability of citizens to lawfully detain a felon, say a rapist or other genuinely violent criminal, should be afforded higher protections than the ability to carry loaded weapons on the street absent any threat. It serves the public much more to have the statutory protection of tackling a rapist caught in the act and detaining him than being able to carry an AR-15 on the sidewalk for kicks.

 

[smartcooky]

This murder had nothing to do with citizens arrest, though. At all. Even theoretically a little bit. This had to do with racist rednecks playing cops and robbers with live rounds. It has a hell of a lot to do with carry laws. It has even more to do with conspiracy to cover up a murder reaching right on up to the DA's office.

While that is true, the repeal of a citizen's arrest law means that in future, racist, murdering scumbags like those three won't be able to do what they did under perceived cover of a citizen's arrest, or use it as an excuse after the fact.

 

[Thermal]

While that is true, the repeal of a citizen's arrest law means that in future, racist, murdering scumbags like those three won't be able to do what they did under perceived cover of a citizen's arrest, or use it as an excuse after the fact.

I get your point, but since the dirtbags had no clue as to what Citizen's Arrest was in the first place (requires a felony act), and the cops absolutely should have known, it seems like a flimsy pretext to simply not charge right out of the gate. If CA was done away with, the excuse would simply revert to open carry/self-defense instead of CA. When you are on Team Dirtbag, it's semantics. The McMicheals were being let off on a broad daylight murder.

What I'd like to see protected are people who potentially witness something like this and are willing to intercede to defend the victim. I'm holding out that good guys outnumber the bad.

 

[smartcooky]

I get your point, but since the dirtbags had no clue as to what Citizen's Arrest was in the first place (requires a felony act), and the cops absolutely should have known, it seems like a flimsy pretext to simply not charge right out of the gate. If CA was done away with, the excuse would simply revert to open carry/self-defense instead of CA. When you are on Team Dirtbag, it's semantics. The McMicheals were being let off on a broad daylight murder.

What I'd like to see protected are people who potentially witness something like this and are willing to intercede to defend the victim. I'm holding out that good guys outnumber the bad.

Agree.

I was really addressing the existence of the law rather than the application of the law by prosecutors. If no such law exists, and that fact is well publicised, and common knowledge, then people are far less likely to try to execute a CA, or use it and as excuse when things go pear shaped.

In NZ (and its not really common knowledge) we actually do have a CA law, but examples of it being used are as rare as rocking-horse ****, and at gunpoint, I can't recall a single example.

 

[arthwollipot]

Ever since I heard of Citizen's Arrest in a 1980 Donald Duck comic, I've thought it was profoundly weird. At first I thought it was just made up.

 

[catsmate]

Ever since I heard of Citizen's Arrest in a 1980 Donald Duck comic, I've thought it was profoundly weird. At first I thought it was just made up.

Police, indeed organised law enforcement, is a relatively new development in human society.

 

[arthwollipot]

Police, indeed organised law enforcement, is a relatively new development in human society.

Not compared to 1980 it isn't.