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Jogging in Georgia while black.

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Trayvon was getting in fights constantly and bragging about it to one of his girlfriends, who texted back that he was going to end up getting shot in the chest if he didn't stop fighting people and acting like a thug. Very prophetic on her part.
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Fighting is a misdemeanour. It does not carry a death sentence!

Trayvon was caught with stolen jewelry and a watch in his backpack by the school resource officer after his bag was searched following being seen vandalizing a locker on security camera. The items matched well with a burglary report filed from a house near the school that same day.
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Breaking into a school locker and being in possession of stolen property are crimes that do not carry a death sentence!

Zimmerman saw him and didn't recognize him, which makes sense because he didn't live there. He was temporarily staying with his father at his father's mistress's apartment. He had been sent up there to Sanford from Miami Gardens by his frustrated mother who was at her wit's end and sick of his fighting and thuggery and troubles at school. So Zimmerman was right about him being a criminal, a thug, a threat, and a stranger to the area.
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Zimmerman is not an LEO. He might have guessed a few things right, but he did not know these things before hand. You cannot use as a defence, things about the victim that you didn't know at the time you committed the offence.

Zimmerman's claim is that he merely kept an eye on Trayvon from a distance and never attempted to close the gap, but Trayvon ran off and then snuck/doubled back and ambushed him after confronting him and making threats. This fits other things we know about Trayvon, and it fits the timeline and where the altercation and shooting ended up happening. It looks like Zimmerman walked east at the "T" junction to see if he could spot Trayvon exiting from that vantage point, through the community's back entrance, and/or to see if he could get an addresshttp://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/helloworld2blues/editor/attach.gif on that side. Then, when he walked back, Trayvon intercepted him.
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None of these things carry a death sentence!

Meanwhile, Ahmaud Arbery was a habitual criminal who was known to pretend to be a jogger to cover for his burglaries and thefts.
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Jogging does not carry a death sentence!

Burglary does not carry a death sentence!

Even combining the two... does not carry a death sentence!

The McMichaels and others in their neighborhood appraised him in an exactly right and accurate way, attempted to confront and detain him for the cops, and were physically attacked by a man who was not afraid of them, but angry at them for trying to impede his criminality.
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Another example of the above. You cannot use as a defence, things about the victim that you didn't know at the time you committed the offence.
 
Skeptic Tank said:
Meanwhile, Ahmaud Arbery was a habitual criminal who was known to pretend to be a jogger to cover for his burglaries and thefts. The McMichaels and others in their neighborhood appraised him in an exactly right and accurate way, attempted to confront and detain him for the cops, and were physically attacked by a man who was not afraid of them, but angry at them for trying to impede his criminality.
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The McMichaels will have an opportunity to tell that to the judge, and jury, but I think it will be a tough sell.
 
smartcooky said:
... does not carry a death sentence!
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I am mentioning these realities in order to remind people what we, now, with the knowledge we have, should think and feel about these cases.

If you are someone who loves order, safety, and a functional society - you should not lose any sleep over the loss of Trayvon or Ahmaud or George or Michael or any of them.

There are some tatt'd up white thugs running around on drugs living lives of perpetual crime as well. When they get popped by one another or by cops, I am glad. Good riddance. Society is improved. I wish it would happen to every single one of them, no matter their race.

A society that finds itself locked in a cycle of getting super upset about criminal thugs meeting their natural end, to the point where it starts debating whether there should continue to be law enforcement, and whether the real problem is law abiding, peaceful, productive citizens and their attitudes, behaviors, and "privileges" - that society is as good as gone.
 
Skeptic Tank said:
I am mentioning these realities in order to remind people what we, now, with the knowledge we have, should think and feel about these cases.

If you are someone who loves order, safety, and a functional society - you should not lose any sleep over the loss of Trayvon or Ahmaud or George or Michael or any of them.

There are some tatt'd up white thugs running around on drugs living lives of perpetual crime as well. When they get popped by one another or by cops, I am glad. Good riddance. Society is improved. I wish it would happen to every single one of them, no matter their race.

A society that finds itself locked in a cycle of getting super upset about criminal thugs meeting their natural end, to the point where it starts debating whether there should continue to be law enforcement, and whether the real problem is law abiding, peaceful, productive citizens and their attitudes, behaviors, and "privileges" - that society is as good as gone.
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The society you want is already gone. We took it from you and there's nothing you can do about it. You can't get it back.
 
Squeegee Beckenheim said:
IIRC, conviction would require a unanimous jury, and amongst the jurors are Trumpistas, what with this being Georgia. So, despite murdering someone on video, there's still a reasonable chance that they'll get away with it, and therefore pleading not guilty is the right thing to do from their perspective.
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Perhaps but there will probably be enough Americans on the Jury to keep the Trump supporters from an outright acquittal. And, all white juries have convicted people of lynchings in the South in the past.

The federal case will be a much different story.
 
Skeptic Tank said:
I am mentioning these realities in order to remind people what we, now, with the knowledge we have, should think and feel about these cases.

If you are someone who loves order, safety, and a functional society - you should not lose any sleep over the loss of Trayvon or Ahmaud or George or Michael or any of them.

…snip….
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Killing people unlawfully should be condemned by everyone who loves order, safety and a functional society.
 
Skeptic Tank said:
I am mentioning these realities in order to remind people what we, now, with the knowledge we have, should think and feel about these cases.

If you are someone who loves order, safety, and a functional society - you should not lose any sleep over the loss of Trayvon or Ahmaud or George or Michael or any of them.

There are some tatt'd up white thugs running around on drugs living lives of perpetual crime as well. When they get popped by one another or by cops, I am glad. Good riddance. Society is improved. I wish it would happen to every single one of them, no matter their race.

A society that finds itself locked in a cycle of getting super upset about criminal thugs meeting their natural end, to the point where it starts debating whether there should continue to be law enforcement, and whether the real problem is law abiding, peaceful, productive citizens and their attitudes, behaviors, and "privileges" - that society is as good as gone.
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Because nothing says "I support law enforcement!" better than the idea of letting armed thugs like Zimmerman (who positively ignored what actual law enforcement told him to do) and the McMichaels wannabes do it instead. Not to mention, who needs law when you can let those same thugs be jury, judge, and executioner all into the bargain?
 
turingtest said:
Why wouldn't the SYG law itself be sufficient justification? It only requires that someone reasonably feels they are at risk of great bodily harm in a confrontation, and there's no requirement that I can see that the person who feels they are at risk knows whether or not it's from a gun. Zimmerman initiated the confrontation by following Martin when he had no right to do so, and in fact had been told by the actual police not to. Martin was perfectly within his rights under SYG to continue to confront, by more active means, rather than retreat- there's no implication that the means used to end a confrontation must be equal in force to what provoked it (Zimmerman's final resort certainly wasn't).

The real problem with the "Stand Your Ground" law is that it positively invites just that sort of escalating scenario, and the only justification anyone needs in the end is to be the last man standing.
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Proportional response, for starters. Someone following you isn't carte blanc to restrain them and go to work on their face. Not using more force than required to stop the believed attack might be in there too.

Agreed that SYG is prone to encourage escalation, though. But should people be forced to turn their backs on an attacker to flee? Seems more wrong to require that.
 
Thermal said:
Proportional response, for starters. Someone following you isn't carte blanc to restrain them and go to work on their face. Not using more force than required to stop the believed attack might be in there too.
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Same guy who says Arbery was just toying with the three armed Rednecks that banged him up with their vehicles before he "immediately" after an 8 minute chase went for the gun says that Martin straight up attacked an armed adult who out-weighed him by almost 50 lbs.

Man, them thuggish blacks, attacking armed assailants out of the blue like that with no provocation!/s
 
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I'm no friend of the death penalty. However, it's hard to argue that either by death by execution or removal by incarceration of the Michaels boy, its spawn and the child porn lover won't be a net win for society. People and communities do good business when they rid themselves of turds. Their kind are artifacts of a dead society and ridding ourselves of that underclass elevates their replacements.
 
This seems to be throwing out the baby with the bathwater. I can now see a future where shoplifters sue stores for illegal detention after being caught and detained while waiting for the police to arrive.
 
PhantomWolf said:
This seems to be throwing out the baby with the bathwater. I can now see a future where shoplifters sue stores for illegal detention after being caught and detained while waiting for the police to arrive.
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Do shopkeepers, and particularly store security, work under "citizens arrest" laws?

I assume that's what you are talking about. I'm not absolutely certain.

One way or another, I'm pretty sure they won't throw out laws that allow Wal-Mart to detain shoplifters. And, today, Wal-Mart et. al. already get sued if they do that and don't have sufficient evidence of a crime to justify detention.

If they accuse you of stealing, and detain you while they call the cops, they better be sure they have the evidence, because if they don't, they can be sued. How that relates to a citizens arrest law and exactly what it's called probably varies from state to state.
 
Meadmaker said:
Do shopkeepers, and particularly store security, work under "citizens arrest" laws?

I assume that's what you are talking about. I'm not absolutely certain.

One way or another, I'm pretty sure they won't throw out laws that allow Wal-Mart to detain shoplifters. And, today, Wal-Mart et. al. already get sued if they do that and don't have sufficient evidence of a crime to justify detention.

If they accuse you of stealing, and detain you while they call the cops, they better be sure they have the evidence, because if they don't, they can be sued. How that relates to a citizens arrest law and exactly what it's called probably varies from state to state.
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Shopkeeper's Privilege, rather than citizens arrest

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shopkeeper%27s_privilege
 
Craig4 said:
I'm no friend of the death penalty. However, it's hard to argue that either by death by execution or removal by incarceration of the Michaels boy, its spawn and the child porn lover won't be a net win for society. People and communities do good business when they rid themselves of turds. Their kind are artifacts of a dead society and ridding ourselves of that underclass elevates their replacements.
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On the contrary, I find it very easy to argue that a society that condones and performs executions is not elevated by that. I judge society by how it treats its least great, not its greatest. Compassion and empathy are what elevates a society, not excision of undesirables.
 
PhantomWolf said:
This seems to be throwing out the baby with the bathwater. I can now see a future where shoplifters sue stores for illegal detention after being caught and detained while waiting for the police to arrive.
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Or even worse, a four year-old child walks out of a Family Dollar Store with a $1 toy without paying for it, and the result is the cops holding the whole family, including the children.....B]at gunpoint[/B]!

(Oh, and before clicking on the link, take a guess what the family's skin colour was!)

https://www.washingtonpost.com/nati...ng-gun-parents/?itid=lk_interstitial_manual_7

Its a ******* disgrace that only one of the cops was even fired. They both should have been prosecuted with aggravated assault, and fired
 
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