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The behaviour of US police officers

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I assume that much of the disparity of force has less to do with gun tactics used by European police and more to do with the normal cops not having guns on quick access for every encounter. Am I incorrect to assume that most of these European police are not carrying firearms as part of their normal patrols?

A cop not carrying a gun can't make the split second decision to gun someone down, and the lack of a lethal weapon may make them much less aggressive and more thoughtful in their approach to conflict resolution.

I am very much opposed to the idea of US cops using firearms with the intention to maim or disable because it almost certainly will mean that cops will be shooting and killing more people, not less. They are already far too quick to use firearms, I fail to see how broadening the tactics involving guns will help that one bit.
 
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Captain_Swoop said:
Why wouldn't a taser have worked?
Why would it take any longer to deploy than a gun?
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The taser is a cross body or weak hand dry. You have to turn the thing on/disengage the safety which is a more awkward movement than on a gun (on purpose to avoid confusion with your gun) . There's no second shot if you a) miss or b) both darts don't attach. The girl the suspect was attacking didn't have time for the officer to discard the taser and come up with a plan B.
 
SuburbanTurkey said:
I assume that much of the disparity of force has less to do with gun tactics used by European police and more to do with the normal cops not having guns on quick access for every encounter. Am I incorrect to assume that most of these European police are not carrying firearms as part of their normal patrols?

A cop not carrying a gun can't make the split second decision to gun someone down, and the lack of a lethal weapon may make them much less aggressive and more thoughtful in their approach to conflict resolution.

I am very much opposed to the idea of US cops using firearms with the intention to maim or disable because it almost certainly will mean that cops will be shooting and killing more people, not less. They are already far too quick to use firearms, I fail to see how broadening the tactics involving guns will help that one bit.
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All apart from the UK have guns on patrol, In the UK even the taser is not carried routinely.
 
Craig4 said:
The taser is a cross body or weak hand dry. You have to turn the thing on/disengage the safety which is a more awkward movement than on a gun (on purpose to avoid confusion with your gun) . There's no second shot if you a) miss or b) both darts don't attach. The girl the suspect was attacking didn't have time for the officer to discard the taser and come up with a plan B.
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Cops in the UK manage to do it.

Even use of the taser is not routine, only 20% of cops are qualified to use it.
 
Ziggurat said:
Most US cops never fire their weapon on duty (outside a shooting range) during their entire career.
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That may be true, but who knows because statistics aren't gathered in the US in systematic and consistent way about numbers of people killed - much less the number of times each police officer had discharged their weapon, on duty, during their career.

It seems that a greater proportion of US police fire their weapons in the line of duty and a greater number of rounds fired than in most developed countries.
 
The Don said:
That may be true, but who knows because statistics aren't gathered in the US in systematic and consistent way about numbers of people killed - much less the number of times each police officer had discharged their weapon, on duty, during their career.

It seems that a greater proportion of US police fire their weapons in the line of duty and a greater number of rounds fired than in most developed countries.
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Also looking at the results for cops that do use their weapons the training is inadequate.
For most it seems to be just attending a range at stipulated intervals and banging away at targets.
 
Captain_Swoop said:
All apart from the UK have guns on patrol, In the UK even the taser is not carried routinely.
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I see.

An interesting note about the taser. Originally there was much hope that this new wonder weapon would reduce police shootings. Bridge the gap between less effective nonlethal weapons and outright lethal force and provide an option that might keep suspects from getting shot dead.

All reporting shows that they don't do anything to reduce the use of lethal force. They are popular non-lethal weapons, and reports of widespread abuse of these weapons as pain-compliance tools are very common. Cops love them because it's much easier than beating up a suspect or pepperspraying them, excruciating pain is simply one button away.

https://www.cnbc.com/2018/01/18/theres-no-evidence-tasers-reduce-police-use-of-firearms-new-study-shows.html

For US cops, the firearm remains the primary tool of law enforcement. Nonlethal weapons like tasers are simply auxiliary tools reserved for special situations, like repeatedly shocking an unarmed person who isn't appropriately compliant.
 
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The Don said:
That may be true, but who knows because statistics aren't gathered in the US in systematic and consistent way about numbers of people killed - much less the number of times each police officer had discharged their weapon, on duty, during their career.

It seems that a greater proportion of US police fire their weapons in the line of duty and a greater number of rounds fired than in most developed countries.
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Some statistics to chew over: https://www.pewresearch.org/fact-ta...officers-who-have-fired-their-weapon-on-duty/
 
Belz... said:
I was specifically asking for shooting limbs and shooting not to kill.



I care, because that's what Captain Swoop claimed. If that's not what's happening then his claim is falsified.
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I mentioned the taking down of the Lee Rigby killers earlier, here are some extracts from various accounts at the time:

"Armed officers shot Adebojalo in the leg and Adebowale in the hand, then gave the men first aid."

"they waited for the arrival of police, who shot them in the legs, according to a passerby who tried to save the dying soldier"

You may try to assert that it may have been accidental and they weren't aiming for the legs so, remembering a fuss a few years back when it was alleged UK Police were operating an unofficial 'shoot to kill' policy, I dug out this:

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2015/nov/17/shoot-to-kill-what-is-the-uks-policy

"A senior police source said the unit would aim to arrest the attackers, but would be prepared to contain and “neutralise” them. “We’re police officers, not soldiers. We’re not at war. Our job is to arrest people,” the source said.

Even if faced with a gunman or gunmen on the rampage, the unit would not have orders to shoot to kill, but would be told to use minimum force. They would not be “firing the maximum number of bullets” and their actions would be subject to the criminal law."

Do police shoot to kill or wound?
The official policy says firearms officers “shoot to incapacitate”.

So far so good I thought....

But then looking further it states:

"They are trained to target the centre of the chest as the quickest way to “neutralise” a suspect, even though it is highly likely that this will kill.

The idea that officers will shoot to wound is dismissed because it is felt that it places the public and officers in too much danger."

So, for the UK at least, it looks like you may be right and I am wrong. Damn. Or at least more right than wrong, they don't shoot to kill but they do target central mass as surest way to 'stop' and accept that is likely to kill.

I suspect it doesn't seem that way to us because there is rarely an armed response and when it is, it's seen as huge news if they shoot someone dead. Also they are very quick to render aid to anyone shot.

Still mea culpa.

One caveat - the article is from 2015.
 
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erlando said:
You really really want "center of mass" to be the only viable target for a shot..
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Don't speculate on what I want, please.

It's my understanding from many discussions here and elsewhere, supported by testimony by experts in the field, that doing so is the safest option for the officers and bystanders. Swoop and Ginger argue otherwise. I'm simply asking for evidence from them that could counter the evidence I've seen so far.

The evidence has no as yet been presented.
 
Belz... said:
Don't speculate on what I want, please.

It's my understanding from many discussions here and elsewhere, supported by testimony by experts in the field, that doing so is the safest option for the officers and bystanders. Swoop and Ginger argue otherwise. I'm simply asking for evidence from them that could counter the evidence I've seen so far.

The evidence has no as yet been presented.
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So.. What you are saying is really, that Danish police aim for center of mass but they are so bad shots that their shots only kill in 20% of cases? Or are you saying that a center of mass shot is less lethal in Denmark than otherwhere?

What is it with the statistics and laws you've been presented with that you don't find believable?
 
The Don said:
It's sad that the "statistics" are based on results of opinion polls rather than actually capturing actual statistics about US officers discharging their weapons.
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That's something we have to get so much better at. There is no uniformed method of capturing this data. There's not even a uniformed requirement for reporting the data.
 
Craig4 said:
In that exact same situation with the exact same amount of information on scene as the Ohio cop had with that exact same amount of time?
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They wouldn’t have access to a gun so would have HAD to have done something different.

Remove the gun and a world of different approaches miraculously appear and since it is claimed that most USA police will never fire their gun in their entire career that appears to be a good idea.



ETA:Watch the video an ex-UK cop Nessie posted above.
 
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