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The behaviour of US police officers

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What is the use of a warning shot? I just don't grasp the doctrine behind it.

Possibly in a situation where it is otherwise impossible to communicate with the person being confronted, it might indicate possession of and willingness to use the firearm. But if they can see you and see that you have a weapon, and hear you say that you'll fire--if they don't believe you'd shoot them, shooting at nothing really doesn't prove anything either.
 
gnome said:
What is the use of a warning shot? I just don't grasp the doctrine behind it.

Possibly in a situation where it is otherwise impossible to communicate with the person being confronted, it might indicate possession of and willingness to use the firearm. But if they can see you and see that you have a weapon, and hear you say that you'll fire--if they don't believe you'd shoot them, shooting at nothing really doesn't prove anything either.
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Shock. The same issues given as a mitigation for police acting how they do applies equally if not more so to the criminal.
 
erlando said:
These are the weapon use statistics from the Danish police

https://politi.dk/-/media/mediefile...hash=45A95F51DBA560A5393E2518574571252324A812

Every time an officer draws his weapon an incident rapport is filed.

The columns from left to right are; "Year", "No. of incidents", "No. of incidents where shots were fired at a person", "Perpetrator dead", "Perpetrator injured", "Perpetrator uninjured"

[qimg]http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/picture.php?albumid=636&pictureid=12819[/qimg]

As you can see, in the period 2014-2019 there was 24 incidents where shots were fired. 5 persons died, 17 persons suffered injuries, and 3 persons were uninjured. So, 80% success rate.

The Danish law governing police use of force explicitly states :



English translation:


The law also explicitly states that before shooting at people officers are required to warn that they are about to shoot and likewise required to fire warning shots before shooting at people. Also officers MUST ensure that people are given time to comply with instructions before shooting. Only in the most extreme of circumstances can they bypass these requirements.

Danish police are in general not allowed to draw their weapons as a preventative measure.
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Again, that is very interesting and informative but doesn't answer my specific question.
 
portlandatheist said:
What exactly do you think a very well-trained Danish cop would have done in this specific circumstance? I can imagine they would do better than US cops in many other circumstances mentioned in the thread but not in this one. I think they would have done exactly the same thing.
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Probably used a taser or as they are trained to shoot for legs.

In the UK the cop arriving wouldn't have been armed for a call like this and the chances are they wouldn't have had a taser either, only 20% of officers are trained to use them and fewer have them issued.
Taser use by the police is still controversial in the UK.

It would have been dealt with using a baton and incapacitant spray.
There would have been two officers attending as patrols are usually in pairs.
Taser use by the police is still controversial in the UK.
 
dirtywick said:
I think there's some merit to questioning the data they do receive also. The police aren't exactly what I'd call forthright about their incident reporting.
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Guns are fired so infrequently that every incidence is recorded and investigated.
In the UK deploying the weapon. An actual weapon discharge is a big deal and an actual police shooting is national news.
 
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Belz... said:
Again, that is very interesting and informative but doesn't answer my specific question.
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I'm pretty sure that no police force would even attempt to capture statistics regarding whether or not an artery was hit while attempting a leg or arm shot.

Is there any alternative statistic they might collect which would act as a adequate proxy ?
 
erlando said:
These are the weapon use statistics from the Danish police

https://politi.dk/-/media/mediefile...hash=45A95F51DBA560A5393E2518574571252324A812

Every time an officer draws his weapon an incident rapport is filed.

The columns from left to right are; "Year", "No. of incidents", "No. of incidents where shots were fired at a person", "Perpetrator dead", "Perpetrator injured", "Perpetrator uninjured"

[qimg]http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/picture.php?albumid=636&pictureid=12819[/qimg]

As you can see, in the period 2014-2019 there was 24 incidents where shots were fired. 5 persons died, 17 persons suffered injuries, and 3 persons were uninjured. So, 80% success rate.

The Danish law governing police use of force explicitly states :



English translation:


The law also explicitly states that before shooting at people officers are required to warn that they are about to shoot and likewise required to fire warning shots before shooting at people. Also officers MUST ensure that people are given time to comply with instructions before shooting. Only in the most extreme of circumstances can they bypass these requirements.

Danish police are in general not allowed to draw their weapons as a preventative measure.
Click to expand...

Remember that in Denmark 'non lethal' weapons like 'rubber bullets' and cs are counted as a firearms incident.
That inflates the 'number of incidents' column
 
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Darat said:
Shock. The same issues given as a mitigation for police acting how they do applies equally if not more so to the criminal.
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Based on that theory, would a noisemaker device creating a similar sound serve the same purpose?
 
Captain_Swoop said:
Probably used a taser or as they are trained to shoot for legs.

In the UK the cop arriving wouldn't have been armed for a call like this and the chances are they wouldn't have had a taser either, only 20% of officers are trained to use them and fewer have them issued.
Taser use by the police is still controversial in the UK.

It would have been dealt with using a baton and incapacitant spray.
There would have been two officers attending as patrols are usually in pairs.
Taser use by the police is still controversial in the UK.
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A taser wouldn't have worked here. They take too much time to employ. The suspect had her back to the officer while attaching the other girl so he could not have sprayed her. Are you willing to risk that the officer could have closed the distance between himself and the suspect and subdue her or injure her arm enough so that she dropped the knife before she cut the other girl's throat?
 
Craig4 said:
A taser wouldn't have worked here. They take too much time to employ. The suspect had her back to the officer while attaching the other girl so he could not have sprayed her. Are you willing to risk that the officer could have closed the distance between himself and the suspect and subdue her or injure her arm enough so that she dropped the knife before she cut the other girl's throat?
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There was no other way to resolve the situation?
 
Belz... said:
Again, that is very interesting and informative but doesn't answer my specific question.
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It does really. If you consider "not hitting an artery" to actually mean "not killing".

Danish police rarely use their guns, and they often manage to wound rather than kill, and it looks as though this is intentional.

I do agree with your basic point that one should only use firearms where lethal force is needed* as they also maim as well as kill.

*although when they are used, they should if possible be used to reduce the risk of killing where that's safe for everyone else - so not suicide bombers.
 
Belz... said:
I've asked for evidence that they actually even try to shoot limbs. So far, zip.
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They are required by law to minimize the risk of injuries to the person they are shooting at. That is not "empty your clip in center of mass". Who cares if they explicitly try to aim at limbs? The very fact that 80% of persons being shot at by police end up not dead should tell you that "aim for center of mass" may not be the only solution.
 
Craig4 said:
A taser wouldn't have worked here. They take too much time to employ. The suspect had her back to the officer while attaching the other girl so he could not have sprayed her. Are you willing to risk that the officer could have closed the distance between himself and the suspect and subdue her or injure her arm enough so that she dropped the knife before she cut the other girl's throat?
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Why wouldn't a taser have worked?
Why would it take any longer to deploy than a gun?
 
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