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Ghislaine Maxwell

catsmate said:
Sigh. That is not what she's been accused, and indicted, for. Not even remotely. So again you're deliberately introducing irrelevancies.
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Hey, I've seen The Untouchables and therefore I know you can switch juries and pleas in the middle of a trial unilaterally... so if The Wolf of Wall Street says you can be convicted for a crime you weren't indicted for, I believe it!
 
Vixen said:
Prostitution is the oldest profession in the world
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No it's not; try flint-knapping.
And you really display an abject ignorance of the history of sex work. I suggest you start with 'sacred prostitution' and work from there.

Vixen said:
OTOH there are sex workers who enjoy what they do and do it quite voluntarily.
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Which is absolutely irrelevant to the indictment under discussion, which involves the coercion of minors.
 
catsmate said:
Which is absolutely irrelevant to the indictment under discussion, which involves the coercion of minors.
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Ah, but you see, if some people in sex work enjoy their work, that means you can't know whether people forced into sex work enjoy it.

But Vixen's totally not defending Maxwell.
 
Vixen said:
If you look at the statistics, in 2018 only eleven people got 'life' and in 2019, this figure was 20. As there were apx. 65 homicides in 2019, this tells you they did not all get 'life' but a fixed term sentence, in accordance with what I stated earlier.

2 [19 April 1991/697] (1) A sentence of imprisonment shall be passed either for a fixed period or for life.
A sentence of imprisonment for a fixed period shall be at least fourteen days and at most twelve 3
years or, when sentencing to a joint punishment in accordance with ch. 7, at most fifteen years.
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Finnish Penal Code
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:dl:


All you've quoted there are general points regarding any sentence. In the same document you'll find this (as timhau stated):

Chapter 21: Homicide and Injurious Offences
[21 April 1995/578]
s
1Manslaughter [21 April 1995/578]
(1) A person who kills another shall be sentenced for manslaughter to imprisonment for at least eight years.
(2) An attempt shall be punished.

2Murder [21 April 1995/578]
(1) If the manslaughter is
1)premeditated;
2)committed in a particularly brutal or cruel manner;
3)committed by causing serious danger to the public; or
4)committed by killing an official on duty upholding the peace or public security, or because of an official
action;
and the offence is aggravated also when assessed as a whole, the offender shall be sentenced for murder to life imprisonment.
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zooterkin said:
:dl:


All you've quoted there are general points regarding any sentence. In the same document you'll find this (as timhau stated):
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Did you not see the bit where it said in 2018 ELEVEN people got 'life' (=max 15 years) and the latest fiegures for 2019 shows only TWENTY got the same.

In other words, it is like I said.

I know killers get lenient sentences just from reading the Finnish regional newspapers. There was one guy recently who arranged to meet up with his ex-girlfriend, who was a successful executive, much loved by her family. He murdered her and claimed not to know her whereabouts to her distraught parents. In the interim, he had emptied her bank account and had taken out numerous loans in her name. He refused to reveal what happened to her body. Her body has never been found. His sentence: 8 years 8 months.

If that doesn't qualify for 'life' one has to wonder what does. Yet people are baying for 35 years for Maxwell, which apparently could go up to 80 years with the new charges.

Remember, you cannot make her a proxy for Epstein's crimes.
 
Belz... said:
Were you sarcastic about being an accountant with relevant experience in the matters at hand?
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I was being sarcastic about Wolf of Wall Street so it was quite amusing to see you rise to the bait as though you had a GOTCHA! moment.

Glad to have given you your short-lived Gotcha! Only it was me that got you, in that you lacked the ability to spot that the reference was tongue-in-cheek and off you went on some mad victory dance as though you had scored a goal.

And you are still chuntering about it now. LOL.
 
Vixen said:
I was being sarcastic about Wolf of Wall Street
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Oh, I know. Or at least I know you're now claiming that. But since it was said in the same breath as the rest of your list, I don't see why I shouldn't lump all of that together. It was a doozy and still is.

(By the way, that's not what sarcasm is. Why don't you ever get anything right?)

so it was quite amusing to see you rise to the bait as though you had a GOTCHA! moment.
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What's more amusing is that as you are more and more demonstrated to actually know nothing of what you're talking about, your earlier claim of expertise becomes progressively more a 'joke'.

And you are still chuntering about it now. LOL.
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I told you, I'm having fun right now. Run, rabbit run!
 
Erratum : I misread the kahden as kahdeksän (eight instead of two, I saw it as eight, which made me reel backwards to think it was two when I saw it).

Milla Aronen's death: Ex-boyfriend escaped murder - less than three years in prison

The District Court of Southwest Finland sentenced Jyri Kristian Nieminen to a total of two years and eight months in prison. The man, who was born in 1995, was convicted of aggravated assault, guilty of death, attempted aggravated fraud, violation of a grave peace, and payment instrument fraud.

Nieminen was also sentenced to pay Milla Aronen's relatives a total of approximately EUR 42,400 in compensation for mental suffering, as well as funeral and legal expenses. In addition, he will have to reimburse the state for litigation costs of more than 8,300 euros, and for two different credit companies about 2,200 euros.

The prosecutor demanded that Nieminen be punished for murder in the district court. The man himself denied the murder charge in court, but said he caused Aronen's death with a blow to the head.

According to Nieminen's own account, he and Arose had an argument at night and had hit Aro once in the head. According to the man, Aronen died.

Nieminen said that he wrapped the body in garbage bags and threw it in a large locked trash can in Salo. Aronen's body is still missing.
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ILTA-LEHTI [google translate]

Can Timhau tell me with a straight face murderers get life in Finland?
 
Belz... said:
Nope. That is another lie.



See that highlighted bit there? I'm making a clear distinction between being convicted and being actually guilty i.e. having done the deed you're accused of.

But go ahead, tell me you're an expert in the English language because you've watched The King's Speech.
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Especially given the whole side discussion about the implications of plea-bargaining.

If you're not prosecuted for a crime because you cooperate to convict someone worse, you are, presumably, in the eyes of the law, innocent as you've never been tried.
 
catsmate said:
No it's not; try flint-knapping.
And you really display an abject ignorance of the history of sex work. I suggest you start with 'sacred prostitution' and work from there.


Which is absolutely irrelevant to the indictment under discussion, which involves the coercion of minors.
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Nobody has answered the question yet: what is the difference between a sex worker aged 17 and one aged 18?

In the USA one is a victim of 'Child Sex Trafficking' although as soon as she turns eighteen suddenly she is not.

In the UK, neither one of these is a minor but a consenting adult.

If a 17-year-old American is flown in from the USA to have sex in England, does English law come into force, or can the USA extradite the person the women claims she had sex with in Maxwell's home in Belgravia?
 
Vixen said:
Nobody has answered the question yet: what is the difference between a sex worker aged 17 and one aged 18?
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One's legal and the other is not.

In the USA one is a victim of 'Child Sex Trafficking' although as soon as she turns eighteen suddenly she is not.
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That's true pretty much everywhere. That's like saying that doing 100 in a 100 zone is fine, but 101 is not. What gives? How do you define speeding?

How do you know I don't have a valid reason for going faster than the speed limit? How do you know Keanu Reeves isn't in the car with me and if we slow down below 100 we blow up, and we're giving ourselves a margin?
 
Vixen said:
Can you clarify why it is all right to be a sex worker aged eighteen but not aged 17? (In the USA, that is, as in the UK that would be fine, as long as the sex worker pays her taxes.)
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It's not okay in the UK, if the worker has been coerced in any way.

I don't think this is a question of age-of-maturity laws and where different jurisdictions try to make the trade-offs, so I'm not going to bother debating it with you here. If you're not getting the basics of the debate, talking about this won't help.
 
jimbob said:
How do US plea bargains work if the criminal is subsequently arrested and charged? I guess that can't be taken into account.
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My understanding is that most plea bargains include a stipulation from the prosecutor that further shenanigans before the bargain is concluded will invalidate the deal.

You make a deal with the prosecutor to rat out your accomplices, in exchange for being charged with a lesser crime, and pleading guilty to that charge in court.

If you then go out and commit more crimes while waiting for your court date, the prosecutor could very well bin the deal and throw the book at you.

After your court date, having pled guilty to the lesser charge and received your sentence, the prosecutor has no more power over you for those crimes. New crimes are the province of a new prosecutor, and your parole board where applicable.
 
Vixen said:
Erratum : I misread the kahden as kahdeksän (eight instead of two, I saw it as eight, which made me reel backwards to think it was two when I saw it).

ILTA-LEHTI [google translate]

Can Timhau tell me with a straight face murderers get life in Finland?
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He wasn't found guilty of murder.
 
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