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Ghislaine Maxwell

theprestige said:
Earlier someone raised the issue of prosecuting Maxwell's customers. So here's a question: Should the prosecutors offer Maxwell's customers plea deals, in exchange for their testimony?

Personally I think if it comes down to whether or not they can secure a conviction for Maxwell, they should probably offer some deals to her customers. I'd rather a few of them get relative slaps on the wrist, in exchange for ensuring she's put away, then her going free while the prosecution throws the book at a few of her customers.

I also like the Brazilian system better: Instead of plea deals, they offer sentencing deals. If you cooperate fully with the police and the courts, you still get convicted of the heinous crimes you actually committed. But you get a more lenient sentence. It's similar to getting time off for good behavior, or getting paroled because you've shown real remorse. Similar, but superior to those, since you're actually contributing up front to the pursuit of justice, rather than just apologizing for your injustices after all is said and done. Way better than the American grey market of plea deals.
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They would need to charge them first before plea deals could be considered?

Would Maxwell theoretically be able to come to a plea deal herself, without having to go through an entire trial?
 
Vixen said:
If Ghislaine Maxwell is merely a Madam, then I don't see her sentence as being one that demands the equivalent of life.
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In this scenario, "Madam" translates to "selling sex with minors as a commodity". I don't see how any sentence other than life would be at all appropriate. Except maybe death.
 
Vixen said:
They would need to charge them first before plea deals could be considered?
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In the US? I think the plea deal necessarily happens before charging, since the accused is pleading to a lesser charge.

In Brazil, the court system is different. As best I understand it, the prosecutor brings the charges, and then the judge considers whether to offer a "rewarded testimony" deal to the accused.

Would Maxwell theoretically be able to come to a plea deal herself, without having to go through an entire trial?
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In the US? Theoretically, yes. A plea deal is at the prosecutor's discretion (though the judge still has to sign off on it). The accused would have to appear in court and plead guilty to whatever charges were agreed to in the deal, and that would be the end of it. I think that would count as a "trial", but it would be a very short one, and would skip a lot of the steps that we associate with courtroom trials (discovery, witness testimony, cross examination, closing arguments, jury verdict, etc.)

In theory, Maxwell could even make the first move, and offer a deal to the prosecutor. It would still be up to the prosecutor to decide whether to accept the offer, reject it, or make a counter-offer.

I think it usually comes down to who's the biggest co-conspirator the prosecutor has a shot at putting away, and whether any of their accomplices can help the prosecutor guarantee that outcome. If Epstein were still alive, Maxwell and the prosecutor would probably be deep in plea bargaining right now. Or if she can somehow finger a bigger fish than herself in all this. Prince what's-his-name, perhaps. But a US prosecutor may not be that interested in going after foreign royalty.
 
Vixen said:
Seriously? Lots of teenagers under the age of consent have sex and come to no harm.
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The likelihood of harm tends to go up when your teenage body is being bought and sold for sex without your consent or after you've been groomed into giving consent.

You keep trying to minimize the crimes Maxwell is accused of.
 
Vixen said:
What is with the snarkiness? Have I upset you in some way?
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Oh, no. I'm having a lot of fun right now.

But, seriously, you've touted yourself as an expert in these matters so you should, in fact, be able to answer your own question.

Let us know what you come up with.
 
Vixen said:
Seriously? Lots of teenagers under the age of consent have sex and come to no harm.
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Belz... said:
You mean amongst themselves or with adults?
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When they are saying "no".

As people mature at different rates, I would hope that almost all people would be able to give informed consent by the local age of consent.

However they are certainly able to refuse consent at a far younger age.

It's clear that many were not consenting in any way. They were forced into it.
 
Vixen said:
I am not sure this is correct, as Finland has the same laws as Sweden and a person convicted of murder rarely gets more than twelve years. I think you need to be careful about the term, 'life' as few people get sentenced to life. Most people convicted of murder will get a set sentence rather than 'life' and that sentence is relatively lenient in many people's eyes. The people who get a life sentence will be those involved in terrorism or serial killers, or some such. I know Sweden brought in a law at the beginning of last year to increase 'life' to 20 years and if that has now been effected, then it has not yet been long enough for '20 years' to be called an 'average' of all those serving sentences for life. Likewise, in the UK, whilst the judges have the power to impose 'tariffs' and 'whole life tariffs', that is purely discretionary, and will apply to the particularly heinous murders, such as terror acts or acts against humanity (which Norway's Breivik was sentenced under and he got 21 years, which is exceptional). In the meantime, most people in the UK convicted of murder rarely get more than twelve years. The problem with a murder conviction anywhere in the western world is that courts have the power to apply a whole range of sentencing from five years to whole life.

In addition, the Latin countries are under Roman Law and their sentencing again will differ from Northern Europe, because of cultural mores and individual acts of state government, although there are similarities in that they are tribunal panels, which although classic Roman Law, adopt the German model, rather than the Napoleonic one of Latin Europe.

If Ghislaine Maxwell is merely a Madam, then I don't see her sentence as being one that demands the equivalent of life.

However, I believe her crimes go beyond mere sex and into the realms of conspiracy and extortion.
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This is several shades of wrong. I thought I'd covered this off in a previous post, but as a very quick recap:

The term "life sentence" does not mean - and has never meant - "incarceration in a prison for the rest of one's life".

The "life sentence" does mean a) the possibility of imprisonment for the rest of the person's life, if the person never satisfies any parole boards that they are fit and proper to be released; and b) if the person is released, the person will still be closely monitored by the authorities for the rest of their life - and can be returned for further lengthy imprisonment if they commit even a minor crime.

Sentencing judges will impose a sentence of something like "Life, with a minimum of 15 years' imprisonment". Now, bearing in mind what I've just said about the "Life" element of this sentence, the second part ("a minimum of 15 years' imprisonment) means that the person cannot even apply for parole until they've served at least 15 years in prison. The person might, if they satisfy the parole board in their first hearing, get released from prison after those 15 years. Or the person might get turned down by their first parole board hearing, and their second and third, but satisfy the fourth parole hearing, and end up getting released from prison after, say, 22 years inside.

For especially heinous crimes, a judge may decide to issue what's known as a life sentence with a "whole of life tariff". This is a judge sentencing someone to spend the rest of their life in prison, with no possibility of parole. This is what you currently erroneously believe a "life sentence" to mean.

NB This is specifically as it applies to England&Wales jurisdiction, but every other western European country has similar terminology and meaning.
 
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It's actually getting more and more depressing for me. I really hope the conversation shifts soon. I've tried to shift it myself, but apparently you're more interested in the clown show than any real discussion.
 
theprestige said:
It's actually getting more and more depressing for me. I really hope the conversation shifts soon. I've tried to shift it myself, but apparently you're more interested in the clown show than any real discussion.
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To be honest recently I've not been seeing anything other than a clown show. But while they last, clown shows are at least entertaining.
 
I like the idea of the Brazilian system, in which one does not actually plea bargain one's way out of the charge.

As for crimes of passion versus business, I would guess it usually goes the way the prestige suggests, but can imagine quite opposite results too. If a person does crime as a business and the punishment is sufficiently severe, they might well consider it bad business, and not want to go through it again. On the other hand, though a crime of passion might be unique, it also might indicate a general tendency to solve issues that way, and an easy sentence might serve as a precedent for the next time passion rises.

I wonder if anyone has done an actual statistical study of this.
 
theprestige said:
The likelihood of harm tends to go up when your teenage body is being bought and sold for sex without your consent or after you've been groomed into giving consent.

You keep trying to minimize the crimes Maxwell is accused of.
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Can you clarify why it is all right to be a sex worker aged eighteen but not aged 17? (In the USA, that is, as in the UK that would be fine, as long as the sex worker pays her taxes.)
 
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