Ghislaine Maxwell

[Vixen]

You mean amongst themselves or with adults?

Prostitution is the oldest profession in the world and being a pimp, probably the second oldest. It is tragic if a woman or man of any age is forced into prostitution, whether because of poverty or because of coercion by others.

OTOH there are sex workers who enjoy what they do and do it quite voluntarily.

Simply saying that one worked as a sex worker for Epstein doesn't necessarily mean they were forced into it, as from what I can gather they arrived by invitation and a mutually agreed transaction took place.

Now, there are other reports of Jean Luc Brunel, a French model agency owner, whom I understand has now been arrested, who flew in a couple of girls 'who looked twelve years old'. Now if that was Brunel introducing minors, how is that Maxwell's crime? She can't be made a proxy for Epstein's crimes just because he topped himself and escaped justice.

 

[zooterkin]

I have sat CPA-equivalent exams in financial corruption so you are preaching to and patronising the wrong person, here.

I am a professional accountant by trade. I have caught at least two high level embezzlers in my career. I saw the play Enron at the Tricycle Theatre and read the book. I followed the Madoff trial. I saw Wolf of Wall Street. You are devoid of common sense if you think Epstein recruited sex workers like being at a tupperware party where you sell kitsch to six friends and they go away and sell to six of their friends. No, this was far more stochastic and poisson-shaped than any orderly pyramid.

If you can't grasp the method by which Epstein recruited I can't help you any further, analogy or no analogy, metaphor or no.

I have never claimed to be an expert. All in your mind.

Okay...

 

[Vixen]

This is several shades of wrong. I thought I'd covered this off in a previous post, but as a very quick recap:

The term "life sentence" does not mean - and has never meant - "incarceration in a prison for the rest of one's life".

The "life sentence" does mean a) the possibility of imprisonment for the rest of the person's life, if the person never satisfies any parole boards that they are fit and proper to be released; and b) if the person is released, the person will still be closely monitored by the authorities for the rest of their life - and can be returned for further lengthy imprisonment if they commit even a minor crime.

Sentencing judges will impose a sentence of something like "Life, with a minimum of 15 years' imprisonment". Now, bearing in mind what I've just said about the "Life" element of this sentence, the second part ("a minimum of 15 years' imprisonment) means that the person cannot even apply for parole until they've served at least 15 years in prison. The person might, if they satisfy the parole board in their first hearing, get released from prison after those 15 years. Or the person might get turned down by their first parole board hearing, and their second and third, but satisfy the fourth parole hearing, and end up getting released from prison after, say, 22 years inside.

For especially heinous crimes, a judge may decide to issue what's known as a life sentence with a "whole of life tariff". This is a judge sentencing someone to spend the rest of their life in prison, with no possibility of parole. This is what you currently erroneously believe a "life sentence" to mean.

NB This is specifically as it applies to England&Wales jurisdiction, but every other western European country has similar terminology and meaning.

Stop putting words in my mouth. I said nothing of the sort. I have never claimed that 'life' in Europe meant 'whole life'. Stop telling lies.

 

[Vixen]

Okay...

If you care to read his post he claimed that I had special knowledge of a legal term and then he confessed he was just playing around for the fun of it.

I am indeed a professional accountant who has worked in the field of financial fraud. Sorry if this brings out the misogynist in people but that is hardly my fault as I cannot be responsible for their reaction to that fact.

ETA: It is revealing that you appear to agree with Belz that I should be an expert in US Law just because I am in another field. Perhaps people should ask themself why they have the need to disparage other people's field of interest. Is it a knee jerk response?

 

[Filippo Lippi]

I am a professional accountant by trade. I have caught at least two high level embezzlers in my career.

There's a noir-ish Scandi-drama just begging to be written right there. As I understand it, all we need now is some knitwear

 

[jimbob]

Yes! And that is one of the points raised in my readings on the Lava Jato case in Brazil. IIRC, at least one of the co-conspirators had their lenient sentencing revoked when they failed to come up with anything useful to justify the leniency.

Which is easier to do whilst fulfilling the requirements of justice if the person is already convicted, rather than innocent in the eyes of the law because they were never even prosecuted.

How do US plea bargains work if the criminal is subsequently arrested and charged? I guess that can't be taken into account.

 

[jimbob]

The likelihood of harm tends to go up when your teenage body is being bought and sold for sex without your consent or after you've been groomed into giving consent.

You keep trying to minimize the crimes Maxwell is accused of.

Exactly. There's a difference between two 15 year olds having sex and a 50 year old repeatedly raping teenagers in order to soften them up for future rape by other people.

 

[timhau]

I am not sure this is correct, as Finland has the same laws as Sweden and a person convicted of murder rarely gets more than twelve years. I think you need to be careful about the term, 'life' as few people get sentenced to life. Most people convicted of murder will get a set sentence rather than 'life' and that sentence is relatively lenient in many people's eyes. The people who get a life sentence will be those involved in terrorism or serial killers, or some such.

Bollocks. The only available penalty for what our criminal law calls murder (roughly equivalent to US 1st-degree murder) is a life sentence, if you're tried as an adult. The way that is carried out is that you can apply for parole after 12 years (10 if you were under 20 when committing the crime). Note the you can apply bit. The average time life termers spend behind bars is around 14.5 years; most get out after their second parole application (you can reapply after 2 years if you get refused), but spending 20+ years inside is not unheard of.

 

[Belz...]

I have never claimed to be an expert. All in your mind.

Oh, reaaaally?

I have sat CPA-equivalent exams in financial corruption so you are preaching to and patronising the wrong person, here.

I am a professional accountant by trade. I have caught at least two high level embezzlers in my career. I saw the play Enron at the Tricycle Theatre and read the book. I followed the Madoff trial. I saw Wolf of Wall Street. You are devoid of common sense if you think Epstein recruited sex workers like being at a tupperware party where you sell kitsch to six friends and they go away and sell to six of their friends. No, this was far more stochastic and poisson-shaped than any orderly pyramid.

If you can't grasp the method by which Epstein recruited I can't help you any further, analogy or no analogy, metaphor or no.

You know it's not quite as easy to lie about these things when it's online and easy to find, right?

Prostitution is the oldest profession in the world

No, that's "farmer".

OTOH there are sex workers who enjoy what they do and do it quite voluntarily.

Simply saying that one worked as a sex worker for Epstein doesn't necessarily mean they were forced into it, as from what I can gather they arrived by invitation and a mutually agreed transaction took place.

Now, there are other reports of Jean Luc Brunel, a French model agency owner, whom I understand has now been arrested, who flew in a couple of girls 'who looked twelve years old'. Now if that was Brunel introducing minors, how is that Maxwell's crime? She can't be made a proxy for Epstein's crimes just because he topped himself and escaped justice.

You know, I can't help but notice you didn't actually answer my question.

 

[Belz...]

ETA: It is revealing that you appear to agree with Belz that I should be an expert in US Law just because I am in another field. Perhaps people should ask themself why they have the need to disparage other people's field of interest. Is it a knee jerk response?

"Hey, you guys. I was totally joking when I was putting all y'alls down for not having criminal justice knowledge and telling you that I knew what I was talking abouts. For reals!!"

 

[Vixen]

Bollocks. The only available penalty for what our criminal law calls murder (roughly equivalent to US 1st-degree murder) is a life sentence, if you're tried as an adult. The way that is carried out is that you can apply for parole after 12 years (10 if you were under 20 when committing the crime). Note the you can apply bit. The average time life termers spend behind bars is around 14.5 years; most get out after their second parole application (you can reapply after 2 years if you get refused), but spending 20+ years inside is not unheard of.

If you look at the statistics, in 2018 only eleven people got 'life' and in 2019, this figure was 20. As there were apx. 65 homicides in 2019, this tells you they did not all get 'life' but a fixed term sentence, in accordance with what I stated earlier.

2 [19 April 1991/697] (1) A sentence of imprisonment shall be passed either for a fixed period or for life.
A sentence of imprisonment for a fixed period shall be at least fourteen days and at most twelve 3
years or, when sentencing to a joint punishment in accordance with ch. 7, at most fifteen years.

Finnish Penal Code


Re 2018 breakdown:

In 2018, a total of 5,566 sentences of unconditional imprisonment were passed. Eleven of these were life imprisonments and 479 were sentences where previous unconditional imprisonment was regarded as a sufficient sanction. Seventy-one sentences of fixed-term unconditional imprisonment of eight years or longer were passed. Fifty-five per cent of them were sentences for manslaughter, murder, killing or infanticide and 44 per cent for narcotics offences.

Statistics Finland

 

[Vixen]

Oh, reaaaally?




You know it's not quite as easy to lie about these things when it's online and easy to find, right?



No, that's "farmer".



You know, I can't help but notice you didn't actually answer my question.

And if you look back on your posts your jeering was related to US criminal law. I never said I was an expert in US law.

Enjoy your sport. I hope it brings you happiness.

 

[Belz...]

And if you look back on your posts your jeering was related to US criminal law.

Nope. That is another lie.

I would if I did, but I don't.

You do understand that her guilt is not dependant on conviction, right? I mean, the odds of her being innocent, given what we know, are pretty slim.

I don't understand why you think she's innocent. Perhaps you're just being contrarian, or habitually wrong. I don't know. But the post I quoted here is completely out of bounds. Why did you even make it, since it doesn't have anything to do with what I said?

See that highlighted bit there? I'm making a clear distinction between being convicted and being actually guilty i.e. having done the deed you're accused of.

But go ahead, tell me you're an expert in the English language because you've watched The King's Speech.

 

[catsmate]

From Google search:

There are many types of white collar crimes, but the following are the most common: Corporate Fraud. ... Embezzlement. ... Ponzi Schemes. ... Extortion. ... Bankruptcy Fraud.

Other than your pathetic attempt to distract, what has this to do with organised sexual abuse of minors for profit?

I would say Epstein and Maxwell getting each victim to recruit more was a kind of sex Ponzi scheme

Then you would be utterly wrong and continuing your attempt to handwave the seriousness of organised sexual abuse of minors.

The fact that some of the girls were underage seems to be the 'Al Capone' excuse the FBI have to arrest her because the main complainants are virtually all in their twenties.

So what? Sexual abuse and exploitation is wrong regardless of the age of the victims.

You carry on believing this is just a simple case of underage sex from about twelve years ago and that Maxwell is just a common street criminal.

 

[catsmate]

Look, I have no wish to downplay Maxwell's appalling alleged crimes,

Then why are you doing just that?

 

[Belz...]

Other than your pathetic attempt to distract, what has this to do with organised sexual abuse of minors for profit?

Strange that experts in criminal law need to look to Google for sources...

 

[catsmate]

Clearly Vixen is bringing far more to this thread than the aging moralists from the New world(s)._

 

[Belz...]

Well, she's bringing in more comedy, that's for sure.

 

[catsmate]

I am not sure this is correct,

Maybe you should go and check (I know it's a new concept for you) as I did?


<snippage of irrelevancies>

If Ghislaine Maxwell is merely a Madam, then I don't see her sentence as being one that demands the equivalent of life.

Sigh. That is not what she's been accused, and indicted, for. Not even remotely. So again you're deliberately introducing irrelevancies.

However, I believe her crimes go beyond mere sex and into the realms of conspiracy and extortion.

Will you be providing evidence for this claim?

 

[catsmate]

Seriously? Lots of teenagers under the age of consent have sex and come to no harm.

Jeebus, another pathetic attempt to minimise the seriousness of the alleged offenses.